Finding Unity in Division

This post was written by marc on September 19, 2004
Posted Under: Letters to the Editor

Letter to the Editor

America is a very divided and polarized nation and there’s very few things we agree on anymore. Sometime one has to really search to find something that most people agree on when it comes to politics. But one thing I think most people can agree with is that the war in Iraq is every bit as legitimate as Bush’s election.

Reader Comments

Damn that is funny 🙂

#1 
Written By Mr. Spock on September 19th, 2004 @ 10:56 pm

I think that Bush’s election is much more legitimate than the war. Bush won the election. His election is just as legitimate as every other Presidential election in the history of this country.

#2 
Written By tomocius on September 20th, 2004 @ 5:33 am

Bush earned the presidency every bit as much as he had earned everything else in his life.

#3 
Written By Jay on September 20th, 2004 @ 6:49 am

Jay, Bush ran for President, and based on the way that our President is chosen (Electoral College) he won. I do not know how he earned everything else in his life, but that is how he earned the presidency.

#4 
Written By tomocius on September 20th, 2004 @ 8:24 am

The supreme court stopping the recount and declaring bush the winner is legitimate? Dangerous precident was what all judges and lawyers I talked to said about that. Not to mention the tens of thousands who were disenfranchised by the whole debacle in Florida. Yah, I guess there was no quarrels about the 2000 election and it was completely legit.

#5 
Written By M. Wills on September 20th, 2004 @ 10:02 am

Wills, I have been a candidate for public office twice in my life. Allow me to explain a couple of things. First, when there is to be an election, the Election Board MUST lay out all the rules for the that particular election. All candidates sign forms saying that they know, understand, and will run according to those rules. In Florida’s 2000 election those rule indicated that there was a deadline for counting of votes. The rule stated that there was a set number of days. At the expiry of that time the most complete count would be used for the results. That said, Bush won the count before that day, Bush won the recount before that date, and Bush won the rerecount before that date. The SCOTUS stopped the state of Florida from finishing the rererecount, which was the right thing to do. From a legal standpoint, the 2004 election was totally legit.

As for those who were disenfranchised, people are disenfranchised in every election. Would you then conclude that no election is legit?

#6 
Written By tomocius on September 20th, 2004 @ 10:34 am

tomocius – Dont you think it a little odd that Bush was soooo 100% sure that he had Florida that even when the news stations reported he had lost it that Bush then said that its wrong ?? He knew he had Florida won even when the news said differently …doesnt that sound a little strange to you ?? Cmon man…how can you not think that Jeb bush helped rig the florida election…Please anyone who thinks that was legit is a complete and total moron. PERIOD

#7 
Written By bushSucks on September 20th, 2004 @ 10:59 am

Personally I hope Bush sends his daughters over there and I hope they get there f u c k i n g heads ripped off…then perhaps Bush will see how stupid his war is.

#8 
Written By BushSucks on September 20th, 2004 @ 11:06 am

Than a moron I am. OUCH! You fucking got me. Bush knew it was wrong when the news oulets said he won, no he lost, no he won. Bush already knew the numbers. So did Gore, that is why Gore called and conceeded to Bush. Don’t you find it interesting that Gore called Bush and conceeded? Only to call back a hour later and say he wanted to withdraw his concession. As for rigging the election, the Democrats tried to steal the election by getting a Daley out of Chicago. And let me tell you, after living in Chicago for 40 years, nobody rigs an election like a Daley. This time they failed, nice try.

#9 
Written By tomocius on September 20th, 2004 @ 11:31 am

Wow! some revisionist history by a member of the Bush Fedayeen.

Bush won the election by a 5-4 vote of the Supreme Court. None of the rest of the votes counted.

By interfering with a STATE recount, the FEDERAL supreme court acted outside of their jurisdiction. Katherine Harris, who was Secretary of State , and in charge of making sure the election was conducted fairly, was at the time on the JEB! re-election committee. That makes your little Chicago snark about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. And makes the Rpugnicants the ones who fraudulently stole the election.

No matter how much you try to revise history, some of us will still remember how the Repugnicants stole the 2000 election.

#10 
Written By (: Tom :) on September 20th, 2004 @ 1:33 pm

I thought it was pretty clear that Bush stole the 2000 election. It turned out Gore had more votes.

Everybody knows this. It was in the news.

Bush didn’t win… he was just inaugurated, that’s all.

#11 
Written By JayRenegade on September 20th, 2004 @ 1:57 pm

Something to recall (hah) about the 2000 FL vote: when the first state judge threw out the Dems’ challenge and it started its way up the appeals route which has to end at the Supreme Court, noone ever discussed the 1 issue that got it thrown out: the Dems NEVER presented a competent fact witness with first-hand knowledge who was willing to testify that the ballots had not been tampered with from the time they left the polling places til they arrived in Jacksonville! That is law school 101 for a court getting jurisdiction to hear a case. Which proves beyond a doubt that you can’t get a good lawyer no matter how much you spend. So much for the Dems’ legal ‘dream team’. After that it started to resemble two mules fighting over a turnip.

#12 
Written By Dave on September 20th, 2004 @ 2:06 pm

Dave, did you have your parties mixed up, or what?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884144.html

Bush filed with the Supreme Court first, and a federal judge in Miami struck the halt down. Read the timeline and cringe…

#13 
Written By M. Wills on September 20th, 2004 @ 3:29 pm

Again, I go back to the law in Florida. It was CLEARLY spelled out. The Democrats and the SCOF tried to break the law. The SCOTUS is there to handle just that type of situation. When we cannot count on a state Supreme Court to do what is right, you appeal to the court of the land.

JUST A BUNCH OF SORE LOSERS! And I suggest that you improve on your ability to hadle a loss, because here comes another one.

#14 
Written By tomocius on September 20th, 2004 @ 3:50 pm

Tomo, I ask you, what has bush done this presidency that is good? If you can find something besides, lowered taxes, great.

On the subject of lower taxes, we are in a time of war, right? Historically, when America was at war, people were asked to make sacrifices. Why not this time? I guess baby boomers didn’t learn anything from their parents and instead choose greed.

#15 
Written By M. Wills on September 20th, 2004 @ 4:01 pm

“Under the commission’s proposal, the participants for the town meeting will be undecided voters from the St. Louis metropolitan area who are chosen by the Gallup Organization.”

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2004/09/20/bush_kerry_campaigns_reach_tentative_accord_for_3_debate/

That is a farce, Gallup- the only poll that doesn’t show this race neck and neck- is going to decide who is at the debate? This is acceptable only if Zogby gets to choose the next, and an informal town meeting style is presented at the third.

Seriously you can’t go to a bush rally if you don’t sign a commitment, get tossed if you have any form of dissent, and now the Republican leaning Gallup picks the crowd for the debates. One side has all the say and the other is stifled, this whole thing smells like crap.

#16 
Written By M. Wills on September 20th, 2004 @ 4:17 pm

Wills, nobody agrees with any single candidate on every issue. If you do, you have no opinion of your own. So in picking a President, one needs to pick the issues in order of importance, and find the candidate that best matches their most important issues. That said, taxes is one of mine. Not because I am some rich slob that does not want to part with any of my money. I am a guy who knows the value of a dollar, how hard it is to make one (us), and how easy it is to take one (them). None of our governments gives us the return for our dollar that we deserve, and in that case I want it back. I really do not think that you guys understand waste. Our governments could do twice as much, with half as much. I am in the process of starting a company, the fees and taxes are overwhelming. It is so burdensome that I am thinking of moving all of the “work” offshore. Not because of what Bush has done, because of what he hasn’t done. They still take too much.

And I can find one more thing that is more important then taxes. 9/11. That is right, Bush’s performance cannot be compared to any modern day President, simply because no other President has had something to the magnitude of 9/11 happen. On 9/11 I was glad of one thing … that Al Gore was not the President. And right now I look at the two choices and think, if 9/11 were to happen again who would I want to be the President, Bush or Kerry? And my honest OPINION is Bush.

#17 
Written By tomocius on September 20th, 2004 @ 6:15 pm

So Tomocius, you are happy that Bush sat there for 10 minutes reading My Pet Goat with some schoolchildren? Instead of scrambling fighters to take out the rest of the terrorists? Or doing SOMETHING, ANYTHING? Can you explain to us, what sort of action could have been worse than this that Gore could have taken???

Bush is not a leader he is a corporate special interest puppet with nothing to say or do unless it is told to him.

Yup Bush certainly does have the stupid people vote LOL.

#18 
Written By Mr. Spock on September 20th, 2004 @ 6:45 pm

Actually Tomo, did you miss the part where Kerry said he would give tax breaks to small companies? In order to help prevent that offshore benefit that so many people are exercising. And what, you can’t blame the fact that you don’t have any lower spending on democrats, because you neo-cons have controlled the legislative, executive, and judicial branches for the past 2 years.

Now, whos fault is that, that the price of health insurance premiums, for example, have gone up 59 percent over the past 3 years? But nah, we shouldn’t cap those prices, the free market will work itself out. You guys take care of all the “checks and balances”, so whose fault is it that you don’t get the small business help that bush promised 4 years ago?

I didn’t see bush saying he was going to give any small business tax breaks during the election, but hey at least his foreign policy has been brilli… oh wait. Well, he helped the elderly and those on medicare with the recent… oh wait. Well he has helped make our defense stronger by stretching our ar… oh wait. Well surely he has created those 4 million jobs he has promi… oh wait. Well, there must be more Americans insured… oh wait.

Yah, I see where I would vote for bush too, yay for that extra dollar that most people get in their paycheck. It doesn’t matter that the people at the bottom are struggling the worst, of course you never needed help when you were just making 18k a year- I still doubt that number. But they should just suck it up and do better, else it’s their own damn fault. Like those 38 percent of the poor that are children, if they were good little conservatives they would go get that job at walmart and work their way up.

When can I call neo-conservatism fascism? Cause I swear it’s getting closer.

#19 
Written By M. Wills on September 20th, 2004 @ 7:07 pm

Spock, if Bush scrambled fighter jets to take out the rest of the terrorist you would be ranting about that. I hope that the President takes a couple of minutes to digest news that is brought to him. In the grand scheme of time, ten minutes is nothing. Bush did nothing for TEN MINUTES, I belive that Gore still would not have done anything to this point in time. Gore would still be sitting there. What if the secret service came up to him and said, Mr. President, there is a crisis situation. We need to get you to a secure location. We are implemanting a plan to get you out of here, be ready to go in ten minutes.

But here is one for you, Mr. Spock. In all of your wisdom, what would have accomplished in that ten minutes?

#20 
Written By tomocius on September 20th, 2004 @ 7:08 pm

Wills, in 1989 and 1990 I made 375.00 per week. My boss 1099’d me, and we did not get paid vacations. That 375.00 x 50 (weeks)= 18,750.

As for the higher health care cost. I believe that they capped them in Canada. If you are not sure go to the Mayo Clinic and ask a Canadian that is in the waiting room. Any Canadian with money leaves and comes here for medical needs. In Canada they tell a doctor how many people he will see, and how much he will make. So he satisfies his number of people in the first ten days of the month and takes the next twenty days off. If you need to go to a doctor you might wait months. Kerry has never written of co-written a bill, nor has he sponsored any bills that would give tax breaks to small businesses. If he did not champion this cause while in the Senate, why should I believe that he will do it while in the White House? I shouldn’t. And I won’t.

#21 
Written By tomocius on September 21st, 2004 @ 3:29 am

“I do not know how he earned everything else in his life, but that is how he earned the presidency.”

Yes, tomocita….and like everything else, the election was something handed to him by the rich and powerful. While your puppy-like adoration of Bush is somewhat amusing, in a pathetic sort of way, your attempts to re-write history are falling a bit flat around here among those who read more than My Pet Goat.

#22 
Written By Jay on September 21st, 2004 @ 4:02 am

Jay? I don’t think that is your name, that is what you have been smoking. You really need to educate yourself on how a President is elected. You show NO understanding of the election process, or the law. Bush EARNED the White House by having more Electoral votes than Gore. You can whimper, kick, screem, and cry. That might have worked with mommy, but it will not work out here in the real world. Bush won, and Bush will win again. Still nobody has taken me up on my bet. When you wake up on November 3rd George Bush will still be your President. Anybody, any amount. And when Bush handily beats Kerry, you guys will still be crying about 2000. WAH! WAH! WAH!

Take another hit of that jay

#23 
Written By tomocius on September 21st, 2004 @ 5:53 am

The full article is: http://gadflyer.com/articles/?ArticleID=139
Yes, yes its the gadflyer, get over it. The numbers stand up. To check the primary sources go to http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2004/ and http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2005/

(snip)
One of President Bush’s early actions was to demote from his cabinet the head of the Small Business Administration (SBA), a position that was elevated to cabinet-level status under President Clinton. Meanwhile, much of the Bush cabinet has been made up of leaders from many of America’s largest corporations.

Given how Bush has treated the SBA and its loan programs, it isn’t surprising that he demoted its chief. In May of 2001, the Washington Post reported that the administration was seeking to slash the SBA budget by 40 percent. More significantly, it planned to eliminate a $144.5 million appropriation for a small business loan guaranty program and impose higher fees for certain borrowers. It took a bi-partisan effort in Congress to save funding for this program, which is the single-largest source of small business capital in the nation.

This pattern would be repeated in subsequent budgets, and this year is no different. The President has proposed slashing the overall SBA budget next year by 10 percent, including eliminating the Microloan program. This loan program is geared toward very small businesses and the self-employed – frequently women and minorities. Overall, Bush has cut the agency’s budget by 25 percent since taking office.
(snip)

Yes, yes make your statement about the lesser of the two evils again. You know what? Instead vote for Badnarik, at least it won’t make you look like a complete hypocrite.

#24 
Written By M. Wills on September 21st, 2004 @ 6:21 am

Wills, do you own any businesses? I am one of three partners in one, and I am starting another one on my own. I have never once talked to anyone at SBA. I have never borrowed a nickle from the SBA. I HAVE borrowed money from a bank. That is where you borrow money, a bank. The USG should cut out the entire SBA loan program. I do not want the USG to lend me money, I want them to quit taking the money that I earn. Some people on this site complain about deficits and debt, and cry when the USG cuts lending. They don’t have any money to lend. I know why the US capital building was built with a dome that looks like a big nipple, they knew they were eventually going to be nursing the entire country. A bastion of babies and dependants.

#25 
Written By tomocius on September 21st, 2004 @ 6:50 am

Yes, Wills, and you ignore all the ballot tampering that went on during the recounts (pollwatchers report counters eating chads, punching dimpled chads and calling them valid votes, etc, etc). It was inevitable that the vote would wind up in the courts. If SCOTUS had given it to the Dems you would be calling it the greatest judicial call since Roe v. Wade. Don’t deny it.

#26 
Written By Dave on September 21st, 2004 @ 7:00 am

How can the U.S. not fear world retribution for these admitted acts of unprovoked aggression? I wouldn’t be surprised if Russia, China and most of Europe were making plans to tame the U.S. military beast.

#27 
Written By Me on September 21st, 2004 @ 1:01 pm

Me, say it is so. I do not think China is going to tame us, not yet anyhow. Look who buys 60% of ALL goods made in China. 290,000 US consumers. They need us. Russia, not hardly. They are in the process of starting their own CONTROL government. Europe? Maybe, they certainly will escalate their hatred for us. Not the Queen and PM, but the rest of Europe will certainly start to hate us more. What will they do? Attack us? No, out of the question. Quit buying our goods? I do not think that they buy a whole lot of goods from us. Send home our soldiers? I WISH! We have 70,000 troops in Germany, and Lord knows how many more around Europe. If the Europeans would ask our military to leave, we as Americans can save a TON of money. It would be great if we could have the military home with the savings it would be a little to quiet the dependant liberals. France hates our military and what it does? There are no French troops stationed here. I agree that the United States Empire needs to settle down, we care way TOO MUCH. I think that we should not care at all.

#28 
Written By tomocius on September 21st, 2004 @ 2:05 pm

Last…

#29 
Written By M. Wills on September 21st, 2004 @ 3:02 pm

I agree with tomocita that we should start evacuating our troops from Europe. They are going to be needed in Korea and to supply fresh cannon fodder for Bush’s excellent war in Iraq.

Otherwise, we may well have to go to a draft…which will surely strike terror into rightwing chickenhawks everywhere with the possibility of actually being in a war rather than just cheerleading one.

#30 
Written By Jay on September 21st, 2004 @ 4:27 pm

I don’t understand how you are all lambasting Tomocius. He has posted facts–Florida State Law set a deadline for vote counting, and that deadline came and passed. The Florida Supreme Court chose to ignore this law and issue another recount, stalling the electoral process. The United States Supreme Court then needed to step in to uphold the law and order that Florida law be obeyed. It does not matter how many popular votes Gore won, not in the least. Our president is decided by tallying the electoral votes (see also: US Constitution).

#31 
Written By Mance on September 27th, 2004 @ 12:13 pm

Good news! I have some excerpts from the Florida State Code.

Title IX, Chapter 102, Section 111, Clauses 2-3 state, “(2) Returns must be filed by 5 p.m. on the 7th day following a primary election and by 5 p.m. on the 11th day following the general election. (3) If the returns are not received by the department by the time specified, such returns shall be ignored and the results on file at that time shall be certified by the department [of State].” Source: 2004->Ch0102->Section%20112#0102.112″>http://www.flsenate.gov/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0102/SEC112.HTM&Title=->2004->Ch0102->Section%20112#0102.112

In this case, the Florida Supreme Court ignored the Florida Statutes and Constitution, and violated the separation of powers by usurping the power and authority of the legislative and executive branches of state government, including the discretionary power of the Secretary of State. The Florida State Supreme Court came up with an implausible, irrational interpretation of Section 102.111 that the Secretary of State shall not ignore late county election returns and that the deadline shall be extended to an arbitrary date picked by the court. There is no language in the Florida Statutes that states that Florida courts, including the Florida Supreme Court, have the discretion or authority to extend the statutory deadline or to accept late county election returns for inclusion in the certified state election results.

#32 
Written By Mance on September 27th, 2004 @ 12:24 pm

Mance, thank you for your help. As I have stated before, I ran for political office twice. There are election laws. And the Florida Supreme Court was breaking those laws. The SCOTUS step in and stop them from breaking those laws. It is that simple. But, these arguments are not about the counting, nor is the argument that the SCOTUS acted improperly. It is that they did not pick Al Gore as the winner. Mad Blue said it best, “If the SCOTUS had made Gore the winner most of these people here would be saying it was the best judicial decision since Roe v. Wade

#33 
Written By tomocius on September 27th, 2004 @ 4:37 pm

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