Marc Perkel Rantz

Should Blacks thank America for ending Slavery?

I want to take the opposite position from those who think that America should apologize to Black people for slavery. Lets look at reality here.

America wasn't the ones who started enslaving blacks. They usually bought black slaves from other blacks in Africa where slavery still exists.

The decendents of the slaves in America are generally far better off that the decendants of those who were not brought to America. Blacks in America should be thankful for their own personal sake that their ancestors were brought over here.

America fought a civil war to free the slaves and blacks all over the world enjoy far greater freedom today because of the white people who fought and died to set them free. Blacks in Africa are more free today because of the civil war. Most of black oppression in Africa today are oppressed and slaughtered by other black people.

If we go back enough generations - we all come from Africa. All our ancestors were once black from Africa. So we are all African Americans.

I will agree that there were attrocities committed by people with light skin in America against people with dark skin in America. However - 100% of my family emigrated from Europe after the Civil War and I think it's racist for people to say that I have a debt to people of color just because I'm visibly white. None of MY ancestors enslaved black people.

Most of American blacks are of mixed heritage and are the decendants of both the oppressors and the oppressed. The number of people in America who are 100% non-white is nearly zero.

I think it's time for black people to stop complaining about the past and start looking to the future - to take responsibility for your own lives and to make the choice to thrive instead of complain. There comes a point where you have to stand up and make the best of your situation and build a future for yourself and your people - or join the civilized world and identify yourself as a fellow human and not by the frequencies of light that are reflected off the surface of your skin.

I say - get over it - focus on the future - and make something of yourself that way that the Asians have. We are trying to give you a hand up - but you have to lift up your own asses and help. I am not racist when I say - I don't owe black people anything because I'm white. I didn't enslave anyone - and if slavery existed today I would be out on the front lines fighting it. But this reparations bullshit is racist.

Lets look at some other facts - more blacks have been slaves to other blacks than they have been to white people.

More blacks today are still slaves to other black people than they are to white people.

More black people are slaughtered by other black people than they are by white people.

So - it looks to me like if reparations are owed - that blacks are more in debt to blacks than whites.

So - I'm just not buying this classification thing that we judge people by the frequencies of light reflected off the surface of their skin. To me we are all one people and we are all humans regardless of race, sex, or lines drawn on a map and we are all working together for the common good of EVERYONE.

Are Liberals more Racist that Conservatives?

I actually think so - it didn't used to be that way but many of those on the left are openly racist against whites. Here's the response I got on the Democratic Underground for refuting the silly notion that white people owe black people for slavery. It's the kind of thing that makes you want to join the GOP - until you find out what the GOP is about.

Well - I've been thrown off of the Democratic Underground twice and thrown off of Free Republic twice. It's just a matter of who controls the site. And - I do that too - sometimes after enough moron posts I start nuking access. But - DU is very racist against white people and if you aren't willing to give lip service to the concept that white people are evil - you don't get to play there.

Oh well - I used to don'te money to them - but they haven't got a dime since they banned me the first time. But - neither the right wing or the left wing controls me. I say what I want - and when I want. So the Democratic Underground can go fuck themselves!

Welcome to Liberal rage!

----------------------------

ibegurpard (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. oh boy

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boilerbabe (837 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
53. You still have Howard Dean on your thingy too!

And keep the liberal flame going, hunny!! Have you been on the new Dem organization site? I have been working waaay too much overtime and have not had a chance to check it out, unfortunately....Still a Deanie,I think he got SUCH a raw deal...
XXXOOO
The Boilerbabe

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pbl (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm sorry, but I couldn't even finish reading your post

It made me so angry that I don't know what to say except, I hope you are not serious.

As a black American, I don't know whether to scream or cry after reading the part of your post that I could get through. I really hope you're not serious.

I'm not a Democrat but I play one on DU

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Tomee450 (134 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I'm with you.

I read the first few lines and could go no further. Unfortunately, I believe there are many who are like this person.

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boilerbabe (837 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
55. My Question is why are they posting on DU??

SHouldn't they be on the Freeper website??

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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
72. I find it appalling, but we DO offer the opportunity to air viewpoints

here. Some of them are bound to be distasteful. Censoring "unpleasant" posts wouldn't serve us.

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boilerbabe (837 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
50. I'm white, and it really bugs me, too

When I was misguided and working on the Reagan campaign oh so many years ago, they tried to pull the "color blind" thingy on me. I pretty much lost it at that point, along with the other social platforms i found that I disagreed with. What the everlovin'byJesus is this guy thinking about anyway? They also pulled that same crap on the Equal Rights Amendment....
It's easy to say "don't worry be happy" when you are white and have a good income and all that...I happen to be white and FINALLY have a good income, but that does not make me forget the people and places and situations I have lived with and have seen...am pretty much foaming at the mouth over this post, why are they letting people like this on DU for one thing??? WTF Ok...should be more open to diverse opinions? Gotta go throw up...talk to ya later GAGGAGAG

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datasuspect (58 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
73. i'm with you

this is post is some unmitigated, offensive bullshit

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. lift up your own asses - that's precious

Don't worry about the fact that you live in a society that has racism and racial bias ingrained in every institution. Ignore the workplace racism that exists almost everywhere. Although the govt keeps going against programs designed to try and equalize opportunities. Just pull up your bootstraps.

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. The ASIANS did it

And you don't see me complaining because Asians are more successful than white people.

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. So much to say - such little interest

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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cheezus (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. Yeah, the ASIANS did the EXACT SAME THING

they were enslaved and brought over here, lived for generations in slavery, then were freed and overcame the generations of ingrained disdain for them. That's why Asians have already thanked the US Government.

Unless specifically noted above, this post is not based on published data or scientific findings and is therefore meaningless.

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Thanks !!! Someone gets it!

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ibegurpard (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. No, someone DOES NOT

your sarcasm detector needs tuning.

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cheezus (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Thanks! Someone who gets it!

oh well, at least this stupid thread has made me laugh.

Unless specifically noted above, this post is not based on published data or scientific findings and is therefore meaningless.

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cheezus (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. I thought I was making fun of you, actually

but I guess you're the one around here who knows the "facts", so who am I to argue?

Unless specifically noted above, this post is not based on published data or scientific findings and is therefore meaningless.

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boilerbabe (837 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
83. You Can't Make Fun of Someone That is Serious

So What else do you have up your sleeve? I took it all kindof seriously, since I have been working waaay too much, my job has kindof put me sideways, it's kind of like ruining my whole perspective. Like 84 hour work weeks. That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it!!

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Cheswick (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
65. Asian are more successful than white people?

What standards are you using?

I like Kerry better this way. = )

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DoveTurnedHawk (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
74. Don't You DARE Try To Pit Communities Against Each Other With Divisive BS

Asians Americans owe African Americans and other people of color an ENORMOUS debt of gratitude, because without the brave and heroic efforts of the Civil Rights Movement pioneers, the Immigration Reform Act of 1965 never would have become law, and there just wouldn't be very many Asians even living in this country. Without the Civil Rights Movement, the few Asians that would be here, would be suffering from even worse racism than people of color already do.

Regarding the "more successful" claim, most Asians live in urban areas, and many report (when they report at all, the poorer ones often don't) data through extended families, and quite a few have higher average education levels due to cultural emphasis. All of these factors skew household income numbers higher than the national average.

Regardless, Asian Americans are not a monolithic group. Some come from countries where the immigrants are middle-class, with a decent amount of capital and a built-in support network of immigrants who came over to America earlier. Often these subgroups do pretty well, and emphasize education for their children. Other subgroups come from crushing poverty, or are fleeing war, and do not do nearly so well.

I am Asian American, and I reject your divisive tactics.

DTH

Play the BushGame! It's a little crass, but informative and hilarious. http://www.emogame.com/bushgame.html I am a proud supporter of John Forbes Kerry for President.

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boilerbabe (837 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
69. Yeah, Right!

I am a white woman in a male-dominant workplace...fortunately this time around, I have not really encountered a lot of "hey bitch, what are you doing here" kind of stuff...I kick ass anyway...
I found where I came from...(Maine) the people distinguish others by saying they are "Black" or some other thing...I also find this here in Connecticut. I try to ease my fellow workers thru the "Fag", "Nigger" thing, I think it's more or less a stupidity thing, seeing as how we have some "Fags, and Niggers" working here anyway. Zoinks, what's a girl to do ? I am not a Fag or a NIgger, but I will be perfectly happy to be one!

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freetobegay (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. I just love waking up & loging on to DU just to see tripe!

Thanks to the Bush Administration, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Take heart

there's plenty of intelligent threads to visit.

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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Bandit (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. I've seen stupid posts before but this one takes the cake

42.7% of all statistics get made up on the spot ~

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pbl (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. May I add

Bush isn't the only who has gotta go!!!!!!!!! You are major league @sshole.

I'm not a Democrat but I play one on DU

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. You can instult me - but I dont't see anyone disputing my facts

Everything I said is 100% true.

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pbl (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. How can you prove or disprove opinion

This is your opinion and may I add that your opinion of blacks in America is wrong!

I'm not a Democrat but I play one on DU

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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
77. Agreed that seems, at least, really uninformed, but

how can an "opinion" be wrong?

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Snow (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Well, okay, I'll start with your subject line...how do you figure

some entity called "America" ended slavery? And really, that's about as far as I got.

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Political_Junkie (482 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. See post #3

no need to dispute your "facts" because you left out the very relevant truth of racism in America.

"...years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

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Snow (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Also, a little applied logic would be educational....imagine, if you will,

"facts" that are not "100% true" - perhaps 97% true facts? or 43% true facts?

I'm not just picking on semantics, here, youngster - if your thinking isn't any clearer that that, then it carries over into your argument about slavery.

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Nimble_Idea (677 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. no, the only thing 100% is your stupidity you freeping monkey
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 12:12 PM by Nimble_Idea

your facts are just a projection of your hate , emanating from the cesspool of sludge that is backed up in your orifices.

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
79. That because you didn't read my post...convenient

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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Straight Shooter (708 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. DU -- Do we have an Idiotic Question of the Century Award?

I think we have a winner.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. (author unknown)

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goclark (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. The Idiot's Award Goes To

the post writer.

I am African American and I would suggest that he/she start reading history books that are NOT written by the KKK.

clark2

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Jen6 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
13. Like asking "should a beaten wife

thank her husband when he stops beating her"?

Good Lord!

An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody will see it. - M.K. Gandhi

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McDiggy (52 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. not quite

No, it's like asking "Should the great-granddaughter thank her great-grandfather for beating her great-grandmother in a situation that ended in her inheriting billions of dollars due to the aforementioned relationship."

Not saying I agree with the guy, I just hate falacious discussion that is flat out silly hyperbole.

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Political_Junkie (482 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. ???

go back to freeperville, asshole.

"...years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

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gmoney (613 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. this is the kind of thinking...

that would advocate bringing back slavery to reduce unemployment.

No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up. -- Lily Tomlin

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Blue-Jay (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
18. Oh, for Pete's sake....

Are with just about done with the "Should X apologize to Y about Whatever"?

It's just guaranteed flamebait every damn time, and annoying as well.

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mandyky (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. There would be few black Americans

if there had never been slavery, and no matter who sold America her slaves, America has always proclaimed freedom as its primary purpose, unless you were something other than a landowning white male.

While African Americans being grateful for now being free, actually thanking anyone but the gods and / or good luck is ludicrous on its face. It took almost 100 years for this country to make sure African Americans a REAL right to vote and attend decent schools. In some places, like Florida, one can argue the vote is being taken back from Black Americans.

The DLC is _STILL_ in Dean-ial! Give 'em Hell, Howard!

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. But America didn't invent slavery

Slavery was common all over the world. It was common in the middle east - Africa - and at times in Europe. All kinds of people were enslaved. But in America we fought a war to end slavery and moved world opinion away from the evils of enslaving people. The slavery situation has vastly improved worldwide because of the efforts of people of all colors working together.

America was not the culprit - we are part of the solution. I am not proud of what white people - who are not my ancestors - in America did before I was born when they enslaved others. I am proud of what people of all colors did here in America to stop it. People who are also not my ancestors.

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CatWoman (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
51. The civil war was not fought to end slavery

that act was a by product of the war.

Lincoln never had any intention of ending slavery -- he stated so several times.

That war was about bringing the union back together.

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OaktownGrrl (293 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Thanks Cat Woman.

I was going to posit same above where he stated his facts were 100% true.

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Cheswick (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #51
96. the thing breaking the Union apart was slavery

The issue of states rights was about whether new states should be allowed to be slave states. The southern states felt they would lose their political advantage if new states were not slave states.
The abolitionists in the north were gaining too much influence and breaking from the union was the only way they saw to continue their "way of life".
So the war was about states right...but it was the right to own slaves that was the disagreement.

So even if it was his intention at the begining to "end slavery". The war did transform itself to that purpose by the time he made the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863.

He may have started out as a very imperfect man of his times, but he ended up with the intention of ending slavery and he accomplished it. Sometimes history is transforming and people step up to the challenge.

I like Kerry better this way. = )

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Cheswick (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
71. slavery ended in many places before it ended in America

get your facts straight.

I like Kerry better this way. = )

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Coventina (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
88. Uh WRONG!!!!

America was just about the LAST place to outlaw slavery......the United States had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the nineteenth century.

Jeez laweez!!!!! Your ignorance is embarrassing!

And we tried so hard. And we looked so good. And we lived our lives in black. But something about you felt like pain. You were my sunny day rain......

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playahata1 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
103. And by the way, you are using the same argument that Bushco

uses to justify Abu Ghirab: "SADAAM WAS WORSE!" The fact that other countries started slavery does not justify America's participation in it.

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Nimble_Idea (677 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. I think it's you who has to lift your head out of your ass

so get about the business of doing that ok.

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Name removed (0 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

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McDiggy (52 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
27. .............

Well, he does have a point. Would African Americans be Americans if it were not for slavery? The question that should be asked is if these ends justify the means; is it worth the agony of your forefathers to live in the wealthiest nation in the world?

I'm not sure what's with the vitrol towards the poster. All I see are numberous knee-jerk reactions without reading or contemplating the entire post.

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Blue-Jay (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. sniff sniff...

hmm.

"vitriol" "knee-jerk"....

yeah.

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Name removed (0 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

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ibegurpard (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. would it be worth it to you

to have your freedom taken away so that your progeny could have the chance to be Bill Gates' maid?

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. out of the mouths of babes

You raise a brilliant point. Most people here on DU have probably NEVER heard arguments like the poster makes. WOW, what a wake-up call for us. Perhaps we should hit the books and do some research about this issue.

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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pbl (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. May I be the first black on this thread to say
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 12:26 PM by pbl

Thank ya massa, thank ya!

This nation wouldn't be great without the black people that it enslaved. It became wealthy at the expense of my forefathers and I don't know where people get this idea that black people owe their freedom to white people-- we fought for every single thing we ever got.

This is the whole mindset of America that has us in this mess in Iraq, that we are the only ones who can free people and life is so much worse if you don't have the American culture to guide you.

I'm not a Democrat but I play one on DU

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sadiesworld (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. We've been "contemplating" this simplistic, racist crap for years...

we get to "contemplate" it everytime Limbaugh and his ilk open their pieholes.

sadiesworld

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
47. Exactly - They wouldn't be here if not for slavery

I am NOT endorsing slavery in any way. The point is - none of the black people in America TODAY were slaves. Neither are any of the JEWS alive today slaves in Egypt. That stuff happened to OTHER PEOPLE. There are a lot of WHITE PEOPLE in America who are also the decendants of slaves. And - there are lots of people of MIXED RACE who are the decendents of people who did all kinds of things.

In fact - every single person on the planet is the decendents of both the oppressed and the oppressors. But that is all backward looking.

If anyone of any reace is going to move themselves and "their people" forward then you have to move your focus away from what happened to ancestors you never met and take some personal responsibility to make something of yourself.

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Walt Starr (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Actually, you've endorsed slavery pretty handily

after all, the sons of former slaves should be thanking their fomer overseers for the beatings, and rapings, and loss of dignity since now they're MURCANS!

There's a word for people like you, but even I won't stoop to that level of obscenity.

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #47
76. Take some personal responsibility? Kiss my lily white ass!

Next I suppose you'll argue that the ghettoization of blacks is good because it allows them to rise to their level of arrested development

BTW...WHERE is Asia is your family from?

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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Cheswick (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #47
101. you are a very young dittohead aren't you?

Don't worry there is still time for your head to detox. Finish High School take some sociology and history classes and then come back and see us.

I like Kerry better this way. = )

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. I read the entire post..and your question is based on the assumptions

he offers as though any are historically correct.

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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playahata1 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
78. Did African slaves ASK to come to the "New World?"
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 01:05 PM by playahata1

They had no choice in the matter, and even if their descendants had the option to go back to Africa, they would not take it, because they had the old ways and culture stripped from them.

You seem to imply that black people should be happy to live in America because of its alleged "superiority" to African -- and other -- cultures. That BS that you and your boy are running off at the keyboard with is not appreciated here, Jack!

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BringEmOn (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
87. Another one with no fork in the family tree?

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philosophie_en_rose (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
102. Slavery isn't the only way to immigrate.
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 01:13 PM by philosophie_en_rose

"Would African Americans be Americans if it were not for slavery?"

Um... yeah. They could have been the sons and daughters of willing immigrants.

Plus, African Americans were not given the rights of Americans until they demanded it. Regardless of slavery or segregation, African Americans don't owe a damned thing to the people that perpetuate the systems that oppress them.

And, do African Americans really live in the "wealthiest nation"? Are there as many African Americans (or "more successful" Asians) in affluent areas as there are in poverty?

We have to fight back. But we can't fight like they do. The Right's entertainment value comes from their willingness to lie and distort. Ours will have to come from being funny and attractive. And passionate. And idealistic. But also smart. And not milquetoasty. We've got to be willing to throw their lies in their face. - Al Franken

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Walt Starr (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
34. You're wrong on your second sentence

America DID start slavery, enshringing the evil institution within it's defining document, the constitution.

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YIMA (75 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. I thought Romans also had black slaves.......

.....as did the Greeks. Of course, both of these cultures enslaved many of the people they conquered.

OUT DA BUSHES!!!!

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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
80. I'm afraid you're mistaken. Slavery predates America by quite a bit.

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Tatiana (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
38. Your thinking is typical of prejudiced and uninformed Americans.

African-Americans are denied the opportunity to even obtain an interview for mid to high level jobs because of "ethnic-sounding" names.

Discrimination and racism still exist, as your own post proves. We are only decades removed from segregation. Children who attend public schools with predominantely African-American populations receive an inferior education to children attending schools where the majority is caucasian.

Racial profiling by the police, the number of African-American males incarcerated (while "white collar" crimes go largely unprosecuted, or result in little to no jail time for those convicted), I could go on and on...

Level the playing field. Let's be fair and give everyone an equal opportunity, then we can talk about moving on and looking towards the future. As it stands now, the future for many minorities is not as bright as it may be for caucasian people.

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DoctorMyEyes (684 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
41. I thought you were channeling Dinesh D'Souza

or attempting some kind of satire - but you're serious aren't you?

Maybe you should go hang out with the freepers or join the American Enterprise Institute - they seem more in tune with your logic.

Why I thought you were *doing" D'Souza:

from "The End of Racism":

"If America as a nation owes blacks as a group reparations for slavery, what do blacks as a group owe America for the abolition of slavery?"

I gave you too much credit.

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
42. What I first began to post started with F and ended with YOU

But the racism inherent in your post is beyond disgusting...allow me to pick it apart...oh and welcome back to DU BTW

America wasn't the ones who started enslaving blacks. They usually bought black slaves from other blacks in Africa where slavery still exists.

That is known as equivocating. That is tantamount to saying that since Hitler actually brought to light the Ukraines murdered by Stalin and since Hitler only exterminated 6 million and Stalin murdered million more that we should actually pause and give thanks to Hitler for ending atrocities in the Ukraine.

The decendents of the slaves in America are generally far better off that the decendants of those who were not brought to America. Blacks in America should be thankful for their own personal sake that their ancestors were brought over here.

Again that is a triangulating argument....many many MORE people were taken into slavery due to the MARKET for it CREATED by the white men that came to take slaves...

America fought a civil war to free the slaves and blacks all over the world enjoy far greater freedom today because of the white people who fought and died to set them free. Blacks in Africa are more free today because of the civil war. Most of black oppression in Africa today are oppressed and slaughtered by other black people.

And that would be a good argument but for the fact that it oversimplifies the causes of the civil war including secession.

BTW most black oppression in Africa today is being spurred on in many regions due to WHITE economic interests such as the race for COLTAN to keep our cell phones and computers humming along...again oversimplification .....it's as though you are claiming that since African wars are black on black versus western wars which are WHITES on every other color, our causes are so much more pure.

If we go back enough generations - we all come from Africa. All our ancestors were once black from Africa. So we are all African Americans.

Not even historically true since some of the earliest human forms are traced to Asia

I will agree that there were attrocities committed by people with light skin in America against people with dark skin in America. However - 100% of my family emigrated from Europe after the Civil War and I think it's racist for people to say that I have a debt to people of color just because I'm visibly white. None of MY ancestors enslaved black people.

BULL FUCKING SHIT...the oppression of African Americans and the economic benefits to white Americans did NOT end with the civil war...so that argument is MOOT.

Most of American blacks are of mixed heritage and are the decendants of both the oppressors and the oppressed. The number of people in America who are 100% non-white is nearly zero.

Complete non-sequitur

I think it's time for black people to stop complaining about the past and start looking to the future - to take responsibility for your own lives and to make the choice to thrive instead of complain. There comes a point where you have to stand up and make the best of your situation and build a future for yourself and your people - or join the civilized world and identify yourself as a fellow human and not by the frequencies of light that are reflected off the surface of your skin.

I say - get over it - focus on the future - and make something of yourself that way that the Asians have. We are trying to give you a hand up - but you have to lift up your own asses and help.

Wow if I sit here and pick apart all the stereotypes you invoke with this sentence...of laziness, ecoexting something for nothing, pretending that blacks have brought all oppression to themselves...I might lunge through the computer.

Welcome back Jumper..glad to see nothng's changed

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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Misunderestimator (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
75. For all you freeps out there that can read ....

Refer yourselves to the post above. I wish I'd written it, but I'm so fuming irritated that all I can say is F*CK YOU bushgottago_gotago.

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camero (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
45. maybe they should thank the rich>major sarcasm

since the rich are the ones that bought and sold the slaves eh? What a stupid post.

``We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.''-George Orwell

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DBoon (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
46. Should White people thank Black people

for all the underpaid labor the Black people's ancestors performed as slaves?

And maybe show their gratitude for all the hard work done by slaves by presenting their heirs with a nice check for wages owed (including overtime pay)?

Bob Dylan wrote propaganda songs

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
61. hmmm - I would say - YES

Because those people are still here and still alive today. That is a real issue that is current. We do need to end anything that makes black people disadvantaged today.

Like I said - focus on the future - not the past.

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DBoon (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #61
85. And property legally earned belongs to one's heirs

And we know slavery is (and should have been) illegal

And we know labor should be fairly compensated, and have laws to ensure this.

Bob Dylan wrote propaganda songs

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CatWoman (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
48. As a black person, I'd like to speak on behalf of other blacks, and say

FUCK YOU.

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. Cat, can you be more direct perhaps?

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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CatWoman (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. LOL

In the future, I'll try to tone it down.

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #63
84. not on my account i hope

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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Political_Junkie (482 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. Woohoo! You go, girl!

"...years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
54. Well - at least it's not about REAGAN!

For those of you who are tired of the never ending funeral.

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. It was what Reagan stood for and cut and paste from David

Horowitz....his ten arguments against reparations...up yours

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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Misunderestimator (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
57. It's time for black people to stop complaining...

And it's time for you to grow a brain. What absolute, sophomoric, idiotic and bigoted logic. Thanks for soiling the board.

I'd say more but I've already read the measured and sensible responses to your crap, which I think I can rightly assume you will neither read nor comprehend.

I am so very sure that YOU "are trying to give... a hand up"... where? the ass?

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Walt Starr (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
58. Folks, this trolling flamfest thread is a DISTRACTION

from the REAL story this morning:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

Proof of torture in the pictures and that dogs were used in that torture, not to frighten, but to INJURE!

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Political_Junkie (482 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #58
86. Thanks, Walt,

I hadn't see that.

"...years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

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Cheswick (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
62. Should men thank women for giving birth all these centuries

so that they could prosper and rule the world?...You know, enslavement by Uterus!

oops, excuse my interupting your borderline racist rant.

make something of yourself that way that the Asians have. We are trying to give you a hand up - but you have to lift up your own asses and help.

ummm yikes

I like Kerry better this way. = )

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playahata1 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #62
95. Cheswick -- that is NOT borderline racist,

that is ALL-THE-WAY racist, period! Let's not beat around the bush here.

Note to Jerk-off of the Year: You say that you are not white. What makes you think that white Americans fully accept you -- if you are indeed what you claim to be?

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Walt Starr (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
66. I'd consider this thread a successful ultimate something or other

because a poster with less than 100 posts has just about single handedly alienated every last African American DUer from this site.

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Correction

Less than 100 posts in this incarnation

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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matcom (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
68. "get over it"???? are you FUCKING INSANE??

i would NEVER EVER FUCKING EVER "get over it" if it were MY history.

"get over it?"

i just can't IMAGINE why this thread was started in the first place

-"Your Government Failed You...." - Richard Clarke

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playahata1 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
70. Who in hell are you to tell black people to "get over it"?

Racism and slavery are NOT dead in this country. You stand a better chance of being hired, of not being followed around in a store, of becoming CEO of a major corporation -- hell, President of the United States -- than I do.

I won't further dignify your bullshit by going on. Your ignorance is beyond words, and contempt.

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supernova (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
81. Should Bushgottago be sold into slavery?
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 12:52 PM by supernova

It seems fitting.

Visit the DU North Carolina Forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...
Proud President of the DU Johnny Depp Fan Club!
Confidential to UGRR:

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #81
93. I think I just found a viable use for Abu Graib

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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supernova (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. Well, there you go

keep a thing long enough and eventually you find a use for it.

Visit the DU North Carolina Forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...
Proud President of the DU Johnny Depp Fan Club!
Confidential to UGRR:

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datasuspect (58 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #81
94. i got a book of s&h green stamps

toward the purchase

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Political_Junkie (482 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #81
100. hmmm...

Got me thinking, Supernova.

"...years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

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slinkerwink (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
82. this is the most moronic post I've ever seen, and you, sir, are a racist!

Forever a Howard Dean Democrat......

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bandera (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
89. The sheer ignorance of this post is appalling.

It's more than obvious that you have little knowledge of what the American institition of slavery, and just as importantly, it's aftermath entailed. I would advise you to read a bit of that history before endulging in such remarks as:

"They usually bought black slaves from other blacks in Africa where slavery still exists."

"America fought a civil war to free the slaves and blacks all over the world enjoy far greater freedom today because of the white people who fought and died to set them free. Blacks in Africa are more free today because of the civil war. Most of black oppression in Africa today are oppressed and slaughtered by other black people."

"I say - get over it - focus on the future - and make something of yourself that way that the Asians have. We are trying to give you a hand up - but you have to lift up your own asses and help."

As for "not being responsible" because "my ancestors" enslaved no one.

I would think that most of us were born after Japanese Americans were sent to concentration camps by our government during WWII. Yet most of us were quite willing to see apolgies and reparations made to those victims of American injustice.

Your rationalizations and excuses sound an awful lot like the drivel I've heard Limbaugh and his ilk spew.

"Mejor morir a pie que vivir en rodillas." - Dolores Iburruri - Madrid 1936

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newsguyatl (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
90. and i say your rationale

is idiotic at best.

pathetic.

"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve." George Bernard Shaw

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FleshCartoon (539 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
91. This argument reminds me of when someone I know...

...who used to beat their wife said that she had it coming because she provoked him.

I suppose that when he allowed her to finally divorce him and didn't go gunning for her like we all expected him to, she should have sent him a thank you card for sparing her life.

Give me a break. This is just bullshit!

Something Shakespeare never said was, "You've got to be kidding!"

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philosophie_en_rose (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
92. Should White People Demand Anything About Slavery?
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 01:11 PM by philosophie_en_rose

Even if you didn't personally kidnap Africans and force them to work on cotton fields, you benefit from the privilege created by that system.

No one can force you to empathize with an experience you obviously think is easy to ignore. That's a personal failing you'll just have to live with for the rest of your life. However, even should everyone "get over it" the political, economic, and cultural effects of slavery would still exist.

"Blacks should be grateful..." For what? For free housing and food back in the day... of slavery. Being raped, enslaved, and degraded for more that four hundred years is sure something to be grateful about.

As for your ignorant comments on Africa, I think you need to learn a little more about colonialism in Africa if you think anyone there should be grateful for the interference of caucasians.

This is probably just a flamebait thread, but it's nice to see how morans can bring us together.

We have to fight back. But we can't fight like they do. The Right's entertainment value comes from their willingness to lie and distort. Ours will have to come from being funny and attractive. And passionate. And idealistic. But also smart. And not milquetoasty. We've got to be willing to throw their lies in their face. - Al Franken

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Mikimouse (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
98. I had to read this entire thread to realize that it was NOT...

written by the likes of Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, or Sean Hannity, and I am still horrified. The most germane point(among thousands that you choose to ignore) that you clearly do not understand is this: (Maestro, please a little organ music appropriate for the occasion, something rousing, like the Battle Hymn of the Republic, playing in the background) The great white society FREED the slaves, hooray, hooray, hooray! BUT FOR WHAT! TO STARVE TO DEATH BECAUSE THEY THEN HAD NO ACCESS TO THE RESOURCES NECESSARY TO SUSTAIN LIFE!!!!!!!!!! OH yeah, we shoud be SO proud. By the way, my ancestors didn't own slaves either, but unless you have missed the entire point, which I suspect you have, we are all supposed to be in this deal TOGETHER. NO, I'm not shitting you, REALLY!

The true greatness of a nation is inversely proportional to the number of times it declares itself so (Mikimouse)

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number6 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
99. Black People Should Thank

all those white people who organized resistance
to slavery in the south ...

"I think it's time for black people to stop complaining about the past and start looking to the future - to take responsibility for your own lives and to make the choice to thrive instead of complain."

and who the hell said they should not ?

Posted by marc at June 12, 2004 08:56 AM | TrackBack