Marc Perkel Rantz

i feel for u mate.. i had my paypal account closed, and by the time i was able to come back to the civilized world to do anything,(was out in the outback) my money, my account all gone.The reason they gave me was inactivity on my account so they took it to themselves to close and wipe my money clean.Your reasons was more obsecure.. wat does an online content (what u write on the net) has anything to do with paypal?

screw them real good!

Large corporations are all, repeat, all crooked. You will need a website the size of Siberia to contain all the "so and so sucks" information. Let me suggest:

CORPORATIONS SUCK

They are Re-animated Companies. They take a company that has been sold (aka dead) and artificially re-animate it with money from absentee stock-holders. These Frankenstein's Monsters are ruling the world. Nice, huh?

They are evil incarnate. Whaddaya gonna do?

the URL to the MP3 is 404, bro.

Drew

As far as the reversal of transaction goes, I think you have a legitimate right to complain.

But I don't think you can call foul as far as PayPal's closing your account is concerned.

From the "User Agreement for PayPal Services":

"This User Agreement ("Agreement") is a contract between you and PayPal, Inc. and applies to your use of the PayPal™ payment service and any related products and services available through www.paypal.com (collectively the "Service"). If you do not agree to be bound by the terms and conditions of this Agreement, please do not use or access our Services.

You must read, agree with, and accept all of the terms and conditions contained in this Agreement and the Privacy Policy, which include those terms and conditions expressly set out below and those incorporated by reference, before you may become a member of PayPal. We strongly recommend that, as you read this Agreement, you also access and read the information contained in the other pages and websites referred to in this document, as they may contain further terms and conditions that apply to you as a PayPal user. Please note: underlined words and phrases are links to these pages and websites. By accepting this Agreement, you also agree that your use of other PayPal websites and Services will be governed by the terms and conditions posted on those websites."

One of the links is the "Acceptable Use Policy", and one of the examples of prohibited services/sites is "information sites or directories that provide links to adult sites or escort services".

PayPal isn't telling you what you can and can't say on the internet. They're not shutting your site down. Private companies *do* have the right to dictate what their services can and can't be used for.

PayPal didn't close your account because of something so arbitrary as "they don't like the content of your web site". They closed it because you broke terms of usage that you had agreed to when you signed up for their services in the first place.

Never, NEVER keep a large balance with Paypal. Damn, 6 months sure seems like a long time to keep somebody's money! That's a helluva float! Whatever happened to 30 days, 60 days, even 90 days? Okay, so 6 months go by and then what - They make your money disappear for inactivity like that poor Aussi who was outback!?

Hey, that recording was funny as hell. Well, obviously, congress has to legislate laws to protect the consumer against paypal/ebay. I never use paypal when I put something up for auction on ebay. Hey, just imagine, ebay just closed my account for a bullshit infraction. That means that they probably would have frozen my paypal account too.

How's that song go... Alicia, Alicia...la la la la

I don't buy keeping the money for 6 fucking months to cover potential complaints. I mean, what if they had already sent you the money; how would they cover their complaints then?

If PAYPAL is acting as any merchant account, they reserve the right to hold funds to handle claims. As a businessman I am not totally bothered by this, if you agree to it. But, I do believe the owner of the account should earn ALL the interest from those funds. Now, I'll go listen to the tape.

"PayPal still faces probes by the FTC and other states regarding how it does business, including procedures dealing with times when product is not delivered after payment is received, and PayPal's account-freezing policies."

http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2004Mar/gee20040310024206.htmw

Mark, I was reading one of your err... other sites...lol....hey, I don't mean to burst your bubble but...BUT... the reason those escorts were telling you that you are so good in bed is because...err.......u were PAYING them and they wanted a tip plus more business in the future.

No, I think that since Paypal's own recording said that the conversation would be recorded puts Mark in the clear.

Dude... you got your Paypal logo right there on your site. Gotta get rid of that...

your blog on Reagan must have offended Paypal.

I don't have a problem with Paypal canceling his account, because they're notorious for not dealing with immoral (to them) stuff. Marc's site does push the comfort level (though I find it informative and hilarious, but that's just me.) And, anyway, that's their right. They can do business with whoever they want. And I can do business with whoever I want. No one's forcing people to use Paypal. Plenty of alternatives out there.

But I do have a serious problem with their holding his funds. They should freeze his account, so that he can only move his funds out, and do nothing else. But tying up his cash is, in my opinion, severely unethical. Not sure what can be done about it, though, except spread the word and cost them business. Worked for me. I avoid Paypal whenever possible now.

So--anyway. I'm starting up an Internet business later this year, and need reviews on digital currency, since Paypal is out. Was out a long time ago. I've heard this happen to lots of people. Anybody use e-gold or its competitors? What did you think?

And, yeah, I was wondering about the legality of taping people without their consent/knowledge. Anybody know the relevant statute? What kind of trouble has Marc got himself into?

ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS PRIVACY ACT

UNITED STATES CODE

TITLE 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I--CRIMES
CHAPTER 119--WIRE AND ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS INTERCEPTION AND
INTERCEPTION OF ORAL COMMUNICATIONS

I guess there are states that have a two party notification law..but most states require single...and since you consented at the beginning of the conversation...when they asked...not that there seemed to be a choice offered to you of a press 1 if you consent, or press 2 if you do not...seems to me when they announce it they are just telling you they are and you have no choice.
The recording of the call was good...

Marc, that was the most enjoyable hour I just spent, reading your page and listening to that recording.

Its time big business gets back to basics and realizes just where they get these big bucks from..US. The people. Our little pocketbooks feed their big executive salaries and its time they felt the pinch, just as we have to.

I am cancelling my PayPal account today. Not that my little amount will hurt them, but spreading the word will. I realize that PayPal was bought by eBay, but new auction sites are opening up daily. Competition is good!!!

And to anyone who wants to go the 'moral route', go right ahead! I've been with Ctyme hosting for two years and nothing on Marc's site bothers me at all. AND, I'm a 60 year old lady, widowed and mother to a wonderful young man. If it doesn't bother me, it shouldn't bother anyone!!

You go, Marc!!

Enough paypal already.

You know, after everything the White House has put this country of ours through, Cheney, despite it all, is in Florida perpetuating the lie that there was a link between Al Qaida and Sadam Hussein! This clown makes me want to puke!

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040615/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney_terrorism_1

Cheney Claims al-Qaida Linked to Saddam

Mon Jun 14, 8:00 PM ET Add White House - AP to My Yahoo!

By MIKE SCHNEIDER, Associated Press Writer

ORLANDO, Fla. - Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites) said Monday that Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) had "long-established ties" with al Qaida, an assertion that has been repeatedly challenged by some policy experts and lawmakers

The vice president offered no details backing up his claim of a link between Saddam and al Qaida.

"He was a patron of terrorism," Cheney said of Hussein during a speech before The James Madison Institute, a conservative think-tank based in Florida. "He had long established ties with al Qaida."

Unbelievable. PayPal doesn't like YOUR free speech, and gets all whiny when you expose their idiocy.

Ass soon as I drain my account, say buh-bye, Pay-former-"Pal"...

Hold the account for 180 days for reversals? Yeah Right!

I got ripped off on eBay, payed with Paypal. Suppose to come in 3 days (express). After 7 days didn't show up. Seller's eBay account NARU'ed. Couldn't contact seller so I filed a Buyer complaint to reverse the transaction to get a refund of my money. After a week of Paypal "investigation", Paypal said they couldn't refund my money because there is NO FUNDS in the account! Why coundn't they reverse it?!?!

"This call may be recorded."

Not a complicated concept!

"May" implies a grant of permission; "might" implies the possibility of something occurring. (If I say you MAY use the phone, that is very different than saying you MIGHT use the phone. One conveys my approval for your engaging in that particular activity; the other conveys my assessment of your future activities.)

Marc's right, PayPal's wrong, and they (to be frank) are more fucked than Anna Nicole Smith if they think holding funds for 6 months is REASONABLE.

In the age of electronic banking, 180 days is an ETERNITY, and completely indefensible.

In my opinion.

;)

Ok get ready, I've had my own experiences with Paypal. You're going to love this (all dates are estimated, as its been a while now):

Early February, 2003 - I bought an item on ebay (a video card for a PC) for 250 dollars. I was a longtime user of paypal AND ebay, (4+ years) and I had joined my bank account (via a Mastercard debit card) to my Paypal account, to facilitate easy payments direct from my bank account to people I bought from on ebay.

Late February, 2003 - I found out the auction was a scam, the seller (one Donald Mann of Vermont) had bilked 30 or 40 people on ebay all at once out of something like 50,000 dollars, and then comitted suicide to tie up all the money in his estate, hoping, I can only suppose, that the people who were cheated would not want to waste the years necessary to get their money back from his estate. I learned all this from multiple sources, including a direct call to the police in his hometown. I first petitioned Squaretrade to refund my money, because he had a sign on his auctions that he was verified with Squaretrade for insured protection for buyers. Squaretrade (after a 3 week investigation) ruled in my favour, but told me I was only able to claim, as ANY of the people Mann had scammed were able to claim, up to 125.00 dollars. I do not know why the amount was arbitrary like that, but perhaps Mann had only had 125.00 protection. He NOR Squaretrade mentioned this at any time on either his website, his auctions, or his personal page on Squaretrade's website. Some of the people scammed by Mann had lost thousands of dollars, so I don't doubt they were even more angry than me that they couldn't recover their money!

Early March, 2003 - My next step was to request that Paypal cancel my payment to Mann, as I knew they were capable of doing, and suggested they tie up all payments together (everyone had used paypal to pay Mann, he didn't accept any other form of payment as I recall) and go after Mann's estate personally. As a major corporation, Paypal would have no problems getting their money out of his estate without too much work. Now, I'm aware this is not something Paypal had any obligation to do, but it would have been a nice gesture of good customer service, as they HAD sponsored Mann as a verfied business customer. It was no big surprise when they told me to shove off. I then asked them if they had any sort of user protection for fraudulent sellers, sort of a "blanket all" policy to protect buyers using Paypal's system. They informed me they did, but it only covered up to 75 dollars worth of purchasing power. SEVENTY FIVE DOLLARS. I informed Paypal they had taken more than that from me in one single fee for a payment received (I'd done tens of thousands of dollars worth of business through paypal since 98/99) and asked them just to be a bit more helpful. They again told me to shove off.

Mid March, 2003 - At this point I decided to go over their heads and contact Mastercard. They were extremely helpful and I was able to cancel the payment with a single 15 minute phone call.

The next day however, I woke up to find that Paypal had noticed this immediately, and simply debited my Mastercard AGAIN with an identical payment. Essentially, all I did was to cancel one payment and have Paypal immediately make another one, WITHOUT MY PERMISSION. I was furious, so I immediately called up Mastercard again and asked them if they could help me. I laid the entire situation out and explained that Paypal was acting very aggressively and taking money out of accounts it had access to, entirely without my permission. Mastercard was very helpful, and said they could cancel this latest Paypal charge and then cancel the Mastercard immediately, leaving Paypal with nowhere else to take money from me (so I thought). I had them do this, and cut up my Mastercard on the spot, finding it a fairly crude but hopefully effective solution.

The next day I awoke to find that Paypal had dipped into my ACTUAL bank account (how they got the information I have no idea) and taken the payment of 250.00 once again. Seeing as how they had no access to my Mastercard, they went straight to the source, AGAIN without my persmission. I was, again, furious, as you might well imagine. I went straight down to a physical branch of my bank and had a talk with a representative. She reversed the transaction and closed my account (again, the only method we could come up with to halt Paypal's aggression)and then immediately opened me up a new account which Paypal would not have access to.

I thought I had seen the last of this, but oh no, Paypal was in no mood to actually do their job and follow up a fraudulent seller. They wanted my money, and they wanted it now. I received a phyiscal letter from them demanding an affadavit stating I had authorized a 250.00 USD payment to Donald Mann, and absolving them of any involvment in the situation. I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP.

I threw the affadavit in the garbage and ignored it. At this point I had decided to never use Paypal again and was just concerned that they not rip me off for any more money than they already had. This last $250 was just the nail in the coffin, and I refused to take it.

I got threatening emails from Paypal, and also notes from my bank about Paypal trying repeatedly to charge my dead account, over 6 months after the event. To this day I have not returned to Paypal's website, and I take every opportunity to make sure people know just how crooked they are.

Good post Anthony Brock. PalPay sucks.

You think I made it up?

How about this:

http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=adeptpet

My feedback is near the bottom (requiem99)

That confirms the scam took place. Now to confirm that Paypal did indeed do what I claimed... I have no idea how to prove that. I cut all communication and business with Paypal after this incident, and Angelfire mail closed down on May 31st so my mail archive (including the mails from Paypal about this incident) are gone now.

http://angelfire.lycos.com/doc/faq/mailjump.shtml

The point I'd make is: Why make up a story about Paypal like this? If I was making it up, I'd make it much more negative against Paypal than it is right now.

Believe whatever you want. Paypal still sucks and is a corporate thief.

I don't understand how they benefit from holding your money for 180 days.

Further more, what do they define "adult material" ?

Its your fault for not reading the user agreement before you signed up. They can withhold money for any reason they see fit, and you agreed to that fact when you clicked "I agree". This site should be more of a "NEWSFLASH! You actually have to read something before you agree to it!" than talking about paypal's unethical practices.

If you've ever dealt with merchants and accepting credit cards, you would know that there's a lot of fraud and many times people don't realize their funds are stolen until later down the line. 6 months is a safety net as stolen funds could be long gone by the time someone got a clue and issued a chargeback. Its a primarily free service, people dealing with big money should pay for an alternative and safer solution.

And if everything is legit, you should get your money back in 180 days. I suggest to everyone, that they never keep money in their paypal account for more than a few hours, and only utilize payment by paypal when all other options are impossible.

I ordered a genealogy service payable through PayPal. The outfit was a rip-off and billed PayPal three separate times the same day of the order, but I did not know this at the time. When I was unable to access the site, I informed PayPal to cancel the charges. They didn't do it, even though I later learned that they had known for months that their client was a scam and had been reported to Atorneys General in several states. It cost me $150 bucks and I got nothing --especially any help from PayPal.

Just wanted to add my 2 cents regarding recording phone calls. If you call a business, a phone call can be recorded. Jerky Boys, Touch Tone Terrorist? Thats why prank callers call businesses. They can't get in trouble.

Most states its legal to record a phone call if one party knows the call is being recorded.

Marc,

As a suggestion, why don't you consider using one of the digital gold currencies like e-gold or pecunix for donations? It may be a bit of a hassle for people to set up, but they don't have the assinine policies that paypal does.

Good job recording the conversation. If they get to keep a copy, so should you.

Really funny how the shills come on here and spread their shit, trying to scare you into deleting your online copy...

Another fine example of American Suck-the corporate-C*ck-Idiocy! "Freedom of Speech"!, "Freedom of expression", the basic core rights of our country that for ages have become few among many empty promises and lies!
I love the freak out response. It really is too bad Paypal had to sell out and rip their customers off with no warning other than vague terms - their loss I suppose, I'm sure there are better alternatives - any suggestions out there?.... "I dont have {a lot} of incentive to lie to you"{hmmm?} Yes, they gave us warning, but that doesn't change their being un-fair and un-helpful to loyal customers. It's not like they don't have that capacity to return the loyalty,this they have shown,they simply chose not to. Yes your content was a bit naughty, but hey- wasn't their selection of dildos?

PayPal sux, I just closed my account thanks to Mark. I'm going to Yahoo's service it's FDIC insured.

PayPal benefits in a big way by holding your cash 180 days- INTEREST- they earn interest on that and you get nothing.

Corporate America, Ya gotta love that crap eh?
Enron, WorldCom, the more I see of these big conglomerate corporate assholes the less I like them.
Listen to Marc's audios of his fiasco with WorldCom, it's no woner theywent bankrupt!!!

Marc,

I think its a riot that people are telling you its your fault for not reading the Paypal user agreement.
If you were to print the agreement out you would have 35 pages, and you would need an attorney to go over it with you with a fine tooth comb.
There are frequent amendments that are almost impossible to keep on top of.

Phil

Mark, I must say you where just wonderful! Paypal sux tapes should be on the store counters by christam!!!!! REALY! :O)

This is a list of states concerning the status on one party/ two party telephone tape recording law with footnotes, federal law coverage and extensive remarks.

Definations:
A one party state means one party to the telephone conversation has to have knowledge and give consent.

A NOTE ON FEDERAL LAW
It would appear that, if a telephone conversation crossed state lines, federal law would have jurisdiction.

California prohibits telephone monitoring or recording, including the use of information obtained through interception unless all parties to the
conversation consent. Cal. Penal Code Secs. 631, 632. There is no statutory business telephone exception and the relevant case law all but excludes this possibility. California courts have recognized "implied" consent as being sufficient to satisfy the statute where one party has expressly agreed to the taping and the other continues the conversation after having been informed that the call is being recorded. Violation is punishable by a fine of up to $2,500, imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. A civil plaintiff may recover the greater of $3,000 or three times the amount of any actual damages sustained.

after all they did state thay you may tape the conversation.:O)

Oh man.... "you cant record because it wont hold up in a COURT OF LAW".
They are obviously worried. They didnt say "you cant record because it wont hold on your website". I dont think you said "recording for the court". You said "for my website".
But I guess it was a sly stab of bullying eh?
-------------------------
Ok, listen to this... This is what happened to me: After 5,900 transactions since 1999/2000 to novemeber 2003 ...on the SAME paypal account taking up to 10,000's of dollars a month... they suddenly said I was running an MLM when my site had NO multi level programs in existence or associated (at the time it didnt).. so it was impossible.
Not only did they reverse my withdrawal like they did to you, they closed the account, kept thousands of dollars for that 180 days, would not prove how MLM was in existence and then EMAILED some of my customers and closed a dozen of their accounts stating its because of being association with MY WEBSITE - an advertising website.... Costing me ungodly amounts (6 figure amount within weeks to months) of orders and customers.
So they email me and say "give us correct contact information and we will 'waive' the 180 days and send your balance to you". So after deciding I dont have the energy to sue them for defamation & loss of income. Besides my kid was in the hospital and I paid 8 grand for that and needed MY money for her bills over the holidays of all times.
Anyway, so I said 'fine, do so and my information IS correct as is'. BECAUSE IT WAS and has been for years.
They write back "We are going to hold it for 180 days" and refused to answer me when I show them the 'waiver' email that they sent me!?
(And not one person refunded, charged back in that recent 180 days!!!)
(MIND YOU I STILL HAVE ALL THESE EMAILS FROM THEM AND MY CUSTOMERS REPORTING THEIR ACCOUNTS CLOSED SITING MY BUSINESS NAME AS THE REASON.)
...so I open 3 more Paypal accounts using relatives such as my mother's name because I have servers to pay for every month and family to pay for over here on my own.
What did they do when I picked up speed and took orders in again?
The same thing. Reverse the withdraw to the bank, sit on the cash, reverse PENDING CHECKS from customers (so they got free advertising from me since I didnt get those payments) and in the same manner as my first account. Quite bizarre and defamatory as hell and still is.
If you email and ask me, I'll tell you the domain because this is 100% true and many of my customers know it.
-M.M.

Marc,

You have a legitimate case against PayPal. Have you considered taking this case to your Senator, Representative, or to the Attorney General's Office? They may state what they want to in the User Agreement, but their "terms" may contravene U.S. Commercial Code and Law, and "may be" in direct opposition of laws prescribed by the FTC.

Just a thought.

BTW, I got out of PayPal over two years ago because they closed my account when I began "billing" more than 50 people a day. They "thought" my billing practices were exhorbitant. I told them 50 a day was slow for my business. I've now gone to secure OLTP through my bank with Visa/MasterCard and other credit card companies. I don't have to worry about PayPal anymore.

Give 'em a good kick in the ass!

Ernest O'Dell

I just want to respond to the guy who complained about Cheney saying that there is a link between Al-Queda and Saddam Hussein. Guess what! Clinton said it too when he was president. Look it up!

I just want to respond to the guy who complained about Cheney saying that there is a link between Al-Queda and Saddam Hussein. Guess what! Clinton said it too when he was president. Look it up!

I am done with paypal. I agree with you so much that if you need a mirror for that mp3 feel free to shoot me an email. Thanks ! and keep fighting the good fight.

You should be crying to Visa and Mastercard. They are the ones that enforce the "no porn" rules. You'll get you money back. Stop whining.

You can argue that he can record the conversation... they say in the begining of the call "this phone call may be recorded"... they never say who can make the recording. Nice! Many states have legal action against paypal because of their tactics... they claim not to be a bank so they can control your money in any way,shape, or form they wish. Hopefully states will make paypal (ebay) be required to enact banking standards. (but remember ebay has a lot of lawyers working for them)

I feel for you guys, I really do. I read this site often and feel sorry for all of you, but you really need to understand what it is that you're agreeing to when you decide to accept credit cards as a form of payment.
Any entity that enables an individual or company to accept Visa/MC must adhere to the rules that Visa/MC put forth. A "middle-man 3rd party Processor" such as Paypal can and will terminate a Merchant whenever they see fit. They will also hold any money that has been processed as whoever has given you access to Visa/MC is ultimately responsible for any "chargebacks" that could possibly come from a customer. A customer is permitted to a window of 6 months to do so I believe.
There are many, many rules that merchants must adhere to in order to continue accepting Visa/MC's product...if you don't then you simply are not allowed to anymore. If a Processor determines that YOU have done anything fraudulent or even just have a high number of chargebacks, they will place you on a MATCH list and no Processor in the world will ever let you accept Visa/MC again.
In closing, if you are a legitimate merchant with a reasonable, limited chargeback history (means you operate fairly with your customers) then you can be approved by a Processor/Acquiring Bank DIRECTLY and cutout a 3rd party Processor such as Paypal. Doing so is much cheaper also, as the Visa/MC fees have been marked-up less than with a 3rd party Processor.
If you have honest questions and concerns, email me and I will try and help you. Sorry, this is for USA based merchants only.
oshapiuma@gobrainstorm.net

Also, you can visit the direct Visa/MC Processor's site that I represent at www.totalmerchantservices.com

Hope this helps!

Regards,
Osha Piuma
Total Merchant Services

My dad was thinking about openeing an account with paypal but I knew they were cheap skates so I tried to did some dirt on them and here it is.

Thanks,
Powerman2442

What I find ridiculous is the cause and effect relationship of their argument.

1) They closed the website because of questionable content.

2) They now think that (I guess) that people will file against the account for money back.

Why oh why would 1) have ANYTHING to do with 2). For one thing YOU CANNOT file against a payment on Paypal unless it is for an auction or they buy the insurance. I guess it is possible for chargebacks, but still they are using this as an excuse. SIX MONTHS -- Chargebacks are usually only valid for 3 months (in my experience), so once again their argument has NO VALIDITY. Their reasoning is faulty and they are using the USER AGREEMENT fine print to keep your money for as long as they want. I'm not even sure that is true ... I have not read the ENTIRE agreement.

I started to make a Paypal account and its still pending verification, I think I'm going to cancel it. I had Paypal linked to my savings account but after reading this stuff I don't want Paypal anywhere near my bank account. Some of you guys may have been screwed over but if enough of your stories get out then Paypal/ebay will start to suffer for it.

stick it to them dude!

I never knew Paypal could do that i feel for you mate. Paypal SUCKS! Good recording and keep on their back.

After reading these posts and listening to the audio clip here, it's obvious to me that we can't be keeping funds in our PayPal account. In fact, I am going to close our account today. It's a real shame since it was so convenient to send money with them. :(

Jimmy Wong, they are closely related. It doesn't take a PHD to guess that an account restriction would lead to chargebacks. And I thought everyone knew that you can chargeback up to 6 monhts later.

I agree with Me, Perkel's an idiot. You'll get your money back, dude.

This is amazing...I've heard of fine print, how fine does it get? "180 days" is a uselessly fixed expression, in which time they can do ANYTHING THEY lIKE with your money! And then they can cancel it for inactivity, delete it and pretend it never existed... they can get away with just about anything if the legalese and weaselese covers it!

PayPal must burn.

Very nice job Marc,

Your audio is more then great.
I could not find your e-mail address here, recently I got screwed by PayPal as well so I build a web site http://www.paypaltcf.com, and I was wondering if we can exchange links, and to get your approval, so that I can place a link for your PayPal audio.

The above web site is Anti-PayPal and Anti-TCF National Bank, who closed my checking account without reason, today published and already submitted to 180 search engines world wide..

I hope that I will hear from you soon.

Hey M Perkel this is gaz be rotten i post at www.paypalsucks.com/forums i let other forums know about this to

Heres One

http://www.bigblueball.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13052

Great site and dont give in to them and oh joe schmo way to go double posting crap that no one is really reading

Paypal tried to do the same thing to me about a year ago. A girl bought an old American Indian knife from me for well over $200.00, then she decided that she didn't like it, so she claimed it wasn't authentic and stopped payment through her credit card. She called and told me that the beading on it was old, but not the knife itself. She had sniped a guy who was a major collector and just from looking at the knife and sheath I could tell that it was the real deal.
I immediately cashed out my Paypal account and had them send me the money (which they did). I didn't know that they were going to get so nuts about it, but when I realized that they were from whatever it was they wrote to me, I called up my credit card company and had them cancel the card and I went and closed a bank account that I had for 20 years and reopened a new one. I had assurances from everyone that there was no way that Paypal could get money from me.
Everything was going fine until I started putting auctions up on eBay again. Every time I came to the payment part of the sell form I would unclick Paypal and I also wrote in my auction that I would not accept Paypal under any circumstances. Every time Paypal would put their logo in my ad anyway, so I made sure that I would write people as soon as the auction was over. It went on for weeks and I could not stop them from putting their logo in my ads.
When I tried to write to them they only gave me so many spaces, so I couldn't say nearly what I had to say to them. Finally I found that page on eBay where everyone was complaining about Paypal and they have all of the Paypal defenders and I wrote a big letter entitled "The Big Paypal Loophole" and sent it in directed to anyone who read it that worked for Paypal. They pulled it off of that page within a day. I noticed that everyone elses letters were staying for weeks maybe months or forever.
They wrote me some generic letter telling me that as soon as the problem was solved with her credit card company, that they would reinstate my account. I wasn't that worried about it because, I had gotten my money and they had no way to get it back from me. The only problem that I had was that I had to watch each auction end and dive on it to write people and tell them not to pay via Paypal. I didn't know at that time that eBay owned Paypal (apparently they did.)
One day I had a bunch of auctions end and I started writing to people, A guy bought a gold coin from me and I wrote him within 8 minutes, but it was too late. He had already paid with Paypal and they grabbed the money. I told him that if he had of read the ad he would have seen that I said that I DO NOT TAKE PAYPAL, NO EXCEPTIONS (in big red letters.) I asked him how he could pay hundreds of dollars for something without even reading the ad. Well, I know he read the ad because the shipping cost was right next to the big NO PAYPAL and he knew the shipping cost. I told him that it was his fault because, he ignored that. Even if he saw the Paypal logo he still could have written and asked about the conflicting words and logos. I think that he probably worked for Paypal because the bottom line was that he turned me in to eBay and the said that the logo was bigger than my words and I ended up getting thrown off of eBay after being an excellent customer since July of 1999.
I didn't go back on eBay for a long time, but eventually I needed to run auctions, so I paid eBay the $200.00 that they had to give him through their insurance program.
When I heard your phone call to Paypal I thought it was brilliant and you're exactly right that there's no difference in one day than there is in a month because, I got my money. I wish that I could put it on my eBay page, so I wouldn't have to keep explaining to people why I won't take Paypal, but I don't know how to lift it.

Marc, your recording was a work of tactical brilliance. I'm going to keep that in mind ANY time I call a company with an inquiry or complaint, provided that the phonecall "may" be recorded. Look out Telstra and Centrelink!Awesome stuff.
I use ebay on and off, and I don't think I'll be endorsing paypal in the future - I've already had problems with making payments to paypal account holders. My stumbling upon your site happened just in time, I believe. I will hastily search for paypal alternatives. Thanks so much for what you did, Marc - it's necessary for the big corporations to be held accountable to the integrity of the consumer. Good on you.
'Mos

Hello. I also got hit by PayPal. $2000.00 and I also recorded the conversation. I told them in advance that I was recording it for legal purposes and that it could be used in a court of law. My recorder put a beep every 15 seconds. The lady I talked to gave me absolute lies about why they closed my account. Still, I'm too busy to take them on and realize that I would end up spending more taking them on. I hate those people and their "policies".

But what really kills me in regards to your situation is that PayPal is now an eBay company. And eBay allows "mature content" items to be sold on their site and these items can be bought and sold using PayPal!!!!

http://pages.ebay.com/help/find/adult.html

Their stance on this stuff is totally ridiculous.

Good Luck.

ever heard of "mother, may i?" the game kids used to play? well, if the automated message at the start of the paypal conversation says "this call may be recorded," that could be interpreted to mean, "permission is open for this call to be recording." if they wanted to get across the meaning that paypal, at that point, either does or does not start recording, they *should* say, "this call *might* be recorded." it's a simple matter of grammar! har har har

"mother, may i record this call?"

"this call may be recorded."

oh -- don't forget that you can record anything you want on the phone, as long as you say, at the VERY beginning -- even BEFORE a live human picks up the other end of the line -- "this call is being recorded." so, even while the automated paypal voice is saying, "this call may be recorded," as long as you say, *on record*, "this call is being recorded," you can record it and do whatever you want with it. at that point, it is up to the person(s) on the other end of the line to either (1) tell you to stop recording (at which point you can hang up and start over with some other person) or (2) hang up. as long as you have, *on record*, "this call is being recorded," you don't need permission from the person(s) at the other end of the line.

I note that you still have PayPal donation links on your websites. I can't see what message paypal gives after clicking, as they're doing maintenance at the moment, but wouldn't it be wise to remove the donation links? Better yet, direct them to this page.
You also have ads for age restricted adult websites, as objectional as your websites may or may not be, supporting you would be supporting them and this could easily be used by PayPal as an excuse.
So, while some consequences for your account may have been justified, holding the money is absurd.

Paypal Sucks.....
I sold to Used Vw fenders to a fellow off a classified site...Sent him pictures of these items and discribed the items to him... He agread to purchase them.. Week later got a email from him saying thanks the items look good... Another week later he emails me saying he wants his money back...I tel him he bought them as is condition.
So he contacts his credit card company saying I discribed Items not as sold...The contact Paypal and they give him his money back...Now I got a charge back...Im out of money and my items...
Paypal wont help...Anyway to fight this? please email me

Wow, I use Paypal all the time for Ebay and never knew about their dickaholish policy. I feel sorry for the poor shlups at the support line though, they are just repeating corporate policy. Having worked in support hell, I can relate to them doing there job. The real enemy is the people on top, and sometimes the only way to get them to change is to get national media attention onto issues like this to scare the piss of them.

I received a damaged (no packing material in carton) item bought on eBay. I paid by Paypal so no problem. Wrong they said "you got something end of case" I called my credit card company & faxed the form from my invoice and it was charged back imediately. That got Paypal unhappy. But with out any thing they could do. It was a protected business acount. It is now linked to a checking account that has about $20.00 left in it.
I do not take Paypal for payments Except personal.

Good on yer Marc!! PayPal are a bunch of thieving scum!!! Your convo is funny as made my day!!!

They're rude cunts!!

I have a story for y'all."My Personal Screwing" we will call it:(It's a note sent to paypal-YOU=PAYPAL)I have been closed several times because YOU decided to believe a customer who claimed thier items HAD NOT been delivered.I was told to fax proof-a copy of money order-sent to customer(a REFUND for HER lie)(Cost me $5 for the m/o and faxes)-I did so, and you still after 6 months refuse to give me my account back.I tried sending you to ebay which shows her positive feedback for NOT only recieving the item BUT selling it.So she gets paid 2 times(MY M/O & her profit for selling MY item) and I HAVE TO PAY 2 times....Technically 3 as I had to BUY the item to begin with a total of $140 IM OUT!!!!! Because you ****s decided SHE was right....even though I DID EXACTLY WHAT YOU ASKED ME TO!!!!!!!!!!!! I think you are the suckiest money manager out there....and don't worry your lies,and stealing will come back to you 10 fold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-I have many more as I have been with them about 6 years-AND they LOVE to SCREW ME!!!!!-ENJOY LOL

Well I am a combatant in this paypal sucks conversation as well. I can easly say that at this point I am going to follow suit and record my next conversation with paypal. My problem with paypal started about 4 months ago, beginning with a fraudulent/hijacked paypal/ebay account. The usual process happened, ebayer receives phish email asking for his info, stupid user fills in the phisher, the hijacker buys one of my auction items, pays with the hijacked paypal account, after which the hijacker was able to change the account info to make it verified in some way. I ship the item to the address listed on the paypal account. 3 days after shipping the item, I get a notice from paypal of a reversal of payment from the ebayer(at which time I learn that the account is hijacked). While my paypal account is 'pending reversal' I open a second account to pay for auctions that I had recently won. about a week after opening the second paypal account I go ahead and accept payments to my second paypal account while my first account is pending. I confirm my second paypal account and follow every step in the 'paypal rulebook' so I can transfer the money amount earned from my auctions. I then try to transfer money out of my second account, to find three days after transferring the fund to my bank account, paypal had finalized the payment reversal on my first account, and then limited my second account due to "suspected fraud". As well, paypal decides to cancel the funds transfer (initiated three days prior), I did not learn of the finalized outcome/limiting/canceled transfer until I went to my bank to withdraw the suspected money, when I get informed that no money was in my account.

I spent hours and days by phone with paypal, trying to get them to reverse the payment transaction because I had a legitimate shipping/delivery receipt. Paypal did not even bother trying to help resolve this. I ended up losing out on a high dollar item(>$1500) I had to get a J.O.B. to try and recover lost money from my bank & paypal accounts.

Thats not the end of the problems, which from that point I should have dropped paypal immediately, but because I still needed to sell off the rest of my items. I needed something to transfer money through. I admit I was ignorant because I knew of 3 other services I could start using to accept payments from ebay other than paypal.

Well my problem this time is, I tried to withdraw funds from my paypal account to my bank account, to find 3 days later paypal tried to withdraw funds FROM my bank account instead. I was hit with a $25 NSF charge. Yesterday(Friday 07232004) I had to goto my bank to find out why I was hit with a NSF charge for trying to transfer money into my bank account. I then learned that paypal had tried to withdraw instead of deposit. I had to pay a fee of $35 to put a stop payment against paypal's attempt to withdraw funds. I spent about an hour on the phone today(07242004) with paypal trying to get them to resolve/change the transfer. No one wanted to help.

I as well heard the message "This phone call may be recorded". OK, now lets got off my problem for a second and get back to the english language that we all agreed to learn at some point in time. We'll start by breaking down that phrase and discover at some point that phrase indicates that "may be" could indicate that, that phone call is authorized/allowed to be recorded. Or again think of it as Might be recorded, but we all agreed to English at some point so "may be" indicates yes, in this phrase.
Because my phone call today I did not heard the phrase "...Recorded for security/quality control/or recordkeeping." So the phrase "This phone call may be recorded(period)" Thats all I heard. So I did not hear that it was only directed to paypal to be allowed to record, I heard the phrase as synomonous with you & I are allowed to record this conversation. Its a bad call/choice of words for any paypal representitive to say no you maynot record that conversation without his/her's consent. Because in the beginning it was stated "This phone call may be recorded." not "This phone call maybe recorded" there is also a huge difference between words. 'maybe' indicates possiblity, while 'may be' indicates authorization in this case. Authorization not directed specifically.

BACK TO MY RECENT PROBLEM WITH PAYPAL...

I have to remember each time I call, the customer service should have been named Customer Runaround. because that is all I received from them. I started with a regular representitive, then moved to a supervisor, then Finally to a Manager of some level. "All I hear from each and every person so far is nothing but a broken record, "I am sorry, we cannot stop this process" are you anywhere educated above the grade school level?" Beleive me this provoked a very negative response from the 'first name' person. By which brings me to my new argument, No way, shape or form would I like to call anyone by there first name unless some sort of friendship/relationship has been started. I hate telemarketers, and bullshit that get this wrong.

Well I am back to square one with paypal when it comes to trying to get money problems with paypal resolved. As soon as someone starts another class action suit against paypal I want to be the 100th person on the list.

Thats it for now, I need to get back to reading more of the recent changes to paypal's Terms & Agreement contract. Which brings us to another point against paypal. Paypal likes to change its terms agreement so often that even if you signed up with paypal at one point where you originally had a bit more right to some oddly service, or quality from paypal. By the 6th month in being with paypal you've lost that right/service. Because paypal loves to change its agreement. What was the last change... October 10th 2003? or last month. Because I know I received some email indicating ANOTHER CHANGE.

Mark whatever right you had with paypal BEFORE they changed policies, it was changed by them. Of course you forefit any rights to complain about the changes or object because you waived that right.

Paypal likes to not email people when it comes to status updates on things. I just finally received the email about the funds not transferring(today)

Paypal is the Worst company in the US. What a shame! American

I am going to get even with these fuckers too. I have started a website and it is currently being designed for me. WWW.paypalalternative.com and there is nothing paypal can do about it. I have an intellectual property lawyer who works for me and said as long as the site CLEARLY states that it is not affiliated with them, ebay... that it's cool. So, I am having a site similar to Paypal designed. You can pay for auctions, send money to anyone, pay your bills, Pay for your escort service bill (HA HA HA), get 48 hour money transfers to your account (not the 3 or 4 days they take) and I am only going to charge 2.29% + $0.30 a transaction. Paypal fucks people over all kinds of ways and I am going to be here for the consumer. No corporate conglomerate behind me. We are all tired of them fucking us over, so I am going to do what needs to be done. Take a big piece of their 35,000,000 customer base and I am going to FUCK PAYPAL!!!!! Please feel free to email me with any comments@ chrisc29@bellsouth.net Thanks and keep fighting!

just a quick reminder, after 180 days, YOU have to email them and if they will return your email for you to get your money back, they will not inform you of the status, if you don't follow up, that will become their money agter another 90 days because no one is claiming it cause that almost happened to my $14000 that they took and spent for 6 months

IF YOU OPENED A PAYPAL ACCOUNT BETWEEN OCTOBER 1999 AND JANUARY 2004, YOU MAY BE ENTITLED TO A PAYMENT FROM A CLASS ACTION SETTLEMENT.

PLEASE READ THIS NOTICE CAREFULLY.

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
SAN JOSE DIVISION

In re PayPal litigation
Case No. CV-02-01227-JF (PVT)

NOTICE OF PENDENCY OF CLASS ACTION AND PROPOSED SETTLEMENT

1. WHY DID I GET THIS NOTICE?
You have been sent this Notice because the records of PayPal, Inc. indicate you are a current or former PayPal account holder. This means you may be eligible to receive a payment from the proposed class action settlement in the lawsuit In re PayPal Litigation, Case No. 02 1227 JF PVT, pending in the United States District Court for the Northern District of California in San Jose. This Notice provides a summary of the terms of the proposed settlement. It also explains the lawsuit, your legal rights under the settlement, what benefits are available to you under the settlement, and how to get them.

https://www.paypal.com/settlement/ - [displays message below - brings you to the link below]

Welcome to PayPal. You are about to be redirected to a non-PayPal site hosted by the claims administrator for the recently-announced class action settlement. At the site, you will be able to learn more about the litigation and class action settlement agreement.

http://www.settlement4onlinepayments.com/

SIGN UP BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!

I am suing PayPal for 1 to 2 Million after they allowed a scam artist to scam me and hundreds others out of millions. They also froze my account and stole thousands more. I don't want to get into the details on a public forum. The person who wrote this site or anyone else having problems with PayPal, email me and I will put you in touch with my lawyer. I ask you all to stand up for your rights and sue this fascist monster. This evil dark corporation is waging war on the US constitution and on free speech and civil rights as we know it. If we do not take a stand and use our powers to sue to fight back, we will allow them to take command of our very lives. Email me at omegadeltagate@aol.com
Join me in my fight, I will tell you my story in private.

BRAVO!! I love the part where the guy states that you recording the conversation would not stand up in court. In some states (including mine, Indiana) only one person needs to know that a conversation is being recorded. Perfectly 100% legal. And admissable in court.

What an idiot. I commend you for dealing with such a dufus without beating yourself to death with your own phone.

This.. this is one interesting story. I would like to it on my website. I haven't had a bad experience yet with paypal, but work at a large corporation, and know what it's like to have to tell people that there's nothing that I can do to over-ride policy. I too am a resolution consultant with a large money stealing corp, and I try all I can within my power in that company to get customers what they deserve.

Thanks for the story.

http://www.settlement4onlinepayments.com/ is down when I just got the notice in my email. What the hell is going on? I was going to use paypal but after seeing this page, I dont know if I really want to try to do that. What others are good to use? I have never tried storm pay. I want to be able to just do email transfers or something. Thats probably the most secure way to do it. Ah well, whatever.
I am listening to the mp3. It still downloads fine for me.

well done ~ stand up for what's right ~ this site has been brought to the attention of UK ebayers ~ GO get 'em

Problem with the site is to many people are accessing it. Keep trying. PAYPAL SUCKS.

I AGREE PAYPAL HAD $9,600.99 OF MY MONEY IN LOCK DOWN AND WOULD NOT LET ME HAVE IT FOR ABOUT 35 DAYS THAT WAS A NIGHTMARE. THEY DO SUCK AND SO DOES EBAY!!!!

I SURE WOULD LOVE TO GET A CUT OF THAT SETTLEMENT...THE SITE WAS DOWN....ANYBODY OUT THERE FIGURED OUT HOW TO FILE YOUR CLAIM..LET ME KNOW..I NEED MONEY...BABY NEEDS SOME SHOES...LOL

Fuck paypal, I am going to stay ahead of the nuclear fallout and get away unscathed while I can.

awesome, just awesome, marc.
that was a terrific job on the phone, but fucking frightening. i just transferred all funds from my paypal to my bank account. i will do this after every payment i receive from now on, including the $50 from paypal's "we are scumbags" class action account, if they ever come through. i will call bank of america to make sure that paypal cannot access my account and take my money.
if anyone knows how to squeeze them for more, please post. i just cannot believe all the stuff ive read here and only now are there legal repercussions.
if anyone has some feedback on paypal alternatives i'd appreciate it.

I listened to your Paypal conversation and I know it so well. Those words, those recordings, those representatives who all follow a script. What a joke! I sympathize with you 100%. I am a "power" seller on ebay and use ebay because it gives me the "power" to stay at home and be with my daughter and not have to work for some shitty corporation. As a single parent I don't have a lot of options. I have never had a problem with Paypal, but this makes me seriously think about bailing out and accepting only Money Orders and Personal Checks at this point. I don't want to deal with an organization that behaves that way. What is the world coming to? I shudder to think...

I love you Marc, this is the best thing any one has ever done, you have taken a step further to try and stop these son off a bitches. I had £3,000 which is $5000 halted and I have been hurt & I mean hurt bad. I will be getting my money after 180 days AFTER they get so much interest out off my money. PAYPAL need to go DOWN ... and go DOWN quick.

I am not a member of PayPal (fortunately). However I am completely aware of the rights of each and every citizen in the United States. PayPal DID act according to their policy, but even so that policy is in violation of free speech and is also illegally holding your money, because for one if you no longer have an account and are no longer affiliated with PayPal, they have no right to keep money that is rightfully yours and no longer a part of a PayPal account. By closing the account because they BELIEVE the content is not appropriate and so on, they have violated your first ammendment right of free speach by judging personal beliefs, thoughts, and opinions that are IN NO WAY affiliated with PayPal and their services. Secondly, by closing the account, the money which was there officially belongs to the owner of the account, NOT PayPal. Even if there was money in the account at the time of closure, the money does NOT belong to PayPal and therefore they are not legally allowed to keep the money for ANY amount of time because it is not their decision. In this situation, you made a transaction BEFORE the time of closure, and therefore if that transaction was approved before it closed, that means that there is no money in the account to hold. So what would make it legal, after approving a transaction, to later go back and say "We can't do that"? If they approved the transaction, they approved it. I don't believe any company is allowed to make a reversal on a ligitament transaction. And also, if they can, where does it state the amount of time before the accounts closure that they are allowed to reverse a transaction? All in all here are the basic points that are in question: 1) PayPal closed an account because they did not like the content of a personal opinions that were expressed on a webpage completely and totally unrelated to PayPal. 2) They held money that was not legally theirs because they had closed the account and the money was no longer a part of PayPal. 3) They went back and reversed a legitament and approved withdrawl of all money that was in the account.

On the first point closing an account based on a personal webpage is the same as banning the use of the site for those who may have a religion that the company "doesn't approve of" or a nationality that they may not approve of. CLOSING AN ACCOUNT BECAUSE OF PERSONAL OPINIONS IS CENSORSHIP AND VIOLATES THE FIRST AMMENDMENT!

The second point is that they are keeping money for any period of time that is not legally theirs. THAT IS THEFT!

The third point is that they had no legitament reason to go back and reverse a perfectly legal withdrawl.

To Mr. Rantz and all others who feel the same on these issues and want to file lawsuits, these are very important points to bring up.

To those of you who are considering using PayPal, know that they use a policy that is unconstitutional and their actions are clearly illegal.

Good luck with your suits against this clearly unlawful company.

My company is a direct competitor of Ebay Wholesale. We are a b2b site and like ebay we do not own or warehouse any of the goods offered for sale. Unlike Ebay, we process funds for the buyers/sellers in order to mimimize fraud.

2 years ago right in the midst of a banner week in sales, Paypal froze our account out of the blue and without notice. Reason? They had decided to conduct an investigation on the items that were listed on Our website. We are not Ebay sellers and we had no complaints from any transactions. BUT Paypal decided to freeze our account and investigate Anyway. Now, GET THIS, They told me in order to lift this freeze I had to give them the names of all my suppliers! Yes, all my registered suppliers - (We have 18,000 registered members)This was right before the launch of Ebay Wholesale. I sent them a fax with 2 names of my suppliers and explained I would be violating privacy laws by disclosing this information and to please reevaluate this request. They didn't respond back nor release my funds. I sent certified letters, faxes, called, emailed and every day single day and each day my business suffered more and more since I could not take money in or pay money out and all orders had to be cancelled. Our average order is around $700.00. My customers started to wonder what was going on when incoming paypal funds were blocked. To make things worse, we were exclusively using Paypal as our payment system. We had agreed to this in order to qualify for the Paypal referral program of $5.00 for each referral that signed up. Considering the size of our database, we felt exclusively promoting Paypal would earn some good revenue. Everyone would sign up! Not only did it backfire, but we never got 1 dime for all the referrals we sent. Paypal changed it's policy midstream so our previous deal was off.

My paypal account was finally released after I filed a complaint with the FTC. I took the advice of the one of the contributors on nopaypal.com. I filed the complaint mid morning and by the afternoon my funds were released.

I closed my paypal account and we do business the safe way. Through US BANK and Cornerstone payment system. We have had Zero problems since. Not one credit card dispute or chargeback.

Jane

http://www.janesdeals.com

You are AWESOME! I like your MP3 recording!!! Damn hilarious. So you know, I have a PayPal account and one of their big customers. I have been doing it for years and have not had any problems YET. But, I am already "situate" everything so as to avoid being screwed by PayPal.

I want to use your mp3 recording in a house mix. how do i get your permission.

"It said, 'this call may be recorded' so I recorded it."

That's clever at an epic level.

Sounds like you had some anxiety going on during the same, but you hung in there for this and did great thinking on your feet and sticking to your issue.

Way to go man!

Hey I just found this website because I was researching a new way for people to make donations to my website. It is an adult website totally free but I was using paypal to pay out for expenses and people were using paypal to make small donations to keep my site running for free.
I just found out that paypal suspended my account for the same reasons I have read above. I never revieved any warning, I found out by logging into my account to check something. I was highly surprized.. I didn't feel like fighting with paypal so I emailed them back 2 disputes and dropped it. I am how ever quite pissed because the more I look into this I find 2 things...... Smaller adult websites who do NOT generate much cashflow are being suspended... larger websites are still able to use paypal.

I had a business account and it is not like they were not charging me, for every dollar donated they took 0.33 cents -- they were making some money!
Anyway I am going to link this to my own website Thanks for the great read!

MARC!! This is excellent. Take some acting classes. I love when you told her you were recording the conversation!!

Good work.

Marc....Unbelievable!!!!!!!! Who in hell do these people think they are??? An affiliate to Al Quida?? Possibly a Baath Party?? I will sure link my websites to yours. THANKS!!! For the REAL inside info.

What are you complaining about?
You should have read the Agreement.
It is against their policy to do buisness with websites like yours. That is their choice. Their policy is to hold your money. If you didn't agree with it, then you shouldn't have used paypal, and you should have taken their threat seriosuly. If you didn't read it, maybe next time you should. Paypal can't be responsible for the fact that you didn't read their rules.

Excellent work Marc. I had a paypal account until about 5 minutes ago. I had heard negative stuff about PayPal but didn't really pay it much mind. Your recorded phone call swung the balance. With any luck they will not go back and clean out my checking account and credit cards out of spite. We'll just have to hope I guess. Thanks Marc.

What you should know about another kind of fraud:

Allah or Jesus? by Rick M.

Last month I attended my annual training session that's required for maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training
session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the Roman
Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who explained each of their belief
systems.

I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of Islam, complete with a video. After the presentations, time was provided for questions and answers.

When it was my turn, I directed my question to the Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a command to all
Muslims, they are assured of a place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel?"

There was no disagreement with my statements and, without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!"

I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can go to Heaven. Is that correct?"

The __expression on his face changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who had just gotten caught with his hand in the
cookie jar. He sheepishly replied, "Yes."

I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr.
Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to Heaven!"

The Imam was speechless.

I continued, "I also have problem with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants you to be with me?"

You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.

(This is a true story and the author, Rick M., is a well known leader in prison ministry.)

Senders words: Needless to say, the organizers and/or promoters of the 'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of
dealing with the Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs. I think everyone in the US should be required to read this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way
this will be widely publicized.

Great site!

I was interested in selling some of my spare computer parts thru ebay but have never used ebay before, so naturally I wondered how the whole buy/sell thing worked and how to receive payment and so on. I have a roomate that sold a MoBo and CPU combo over ebay using paypal and he told me a little how it worked and that it was real easy and secure. So I go to google and do a search for paypal and just before I click on the link for "paypal" I notice other sites like this one and paypalsucks.com.

After reading through most of the horror stories I definetly wont join Papal. And I'm really disgusted to learn how greedy and coniving people can be. I mean it sounds like these people would steal your dirty underwear if the opportunity presented itself.

I was looking for a good experience when I was considering selling my items online. But now after reading this site and others like it I realize that theres a good possibility that I might got robbed. This shatered my expectations.

Still, I wanted to register with ebay anyway, and figured the only real safe way to except a payment would be a money order if I ever sold anything. I took the registration turtorial that they offer on ebay that shows you in 3 easy steps how to register. And in neither of these steps does it say you have to give creditcard info because registering with ebay is free, except in my case.

Apparrently I suppose since I have a hotmail account they need to verify this with credit card info - so for me there was a fourth step(there was a little link that stated if I had outlook or AOL email I wouldn't have to give my credit card info but hotmail is the only email I have and after reading this site I really didnt want to do that just to register. But I did anyway becuase on each page it said it was free to register and the website made this abundantly clear).

So I finished registering with ebay got the conformation email and everything was all good.

Then I go back to reading some of the crazy stories on these websites and I sart getting really paranoid about some of the past transactions I've made with my credit card online. Now realizing that my number is floating around somwhere in cyber space I just figure it better to get a new number and trash my existing card to be on the safe side. While I'm on the phone with VISA I also jump on to there netaccess website that allows you to see up to the minute transactions on your card, I notices something I can't believe. Ebay charged me one freaking dollar to register on there site. when it mentioned 2 to 3 times that registering was free. Now its not the money that bothers me becuase its only a dollar but its the fact that the lied on their website. They said registering is free ... if I have to pay 1 cent to register, then its not free. I mean this just happend. Not to beat a dead horse but I looked in websters to try and understand the full meaning of "free" and see if ebay means something else when the say its free to register and these are the entries I found:

"Main Entry: 1free
Pronunciation: 'frE
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): fre·er; fre·est
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English frEo; akin to Old High German frI free, Welsh rhydd, Sanskrit priya own, dear
1 a : having the legal and political rights of a citizen b : enjoying civil and political liberty c : enjoying political independence or freedom from outside domination d : enjoying personal freedom : not subject to the control or domination of another
2 a : not determined by anything beyond its own nature or being : choosing or capable of choosing for itself b : determined by the choice of the actor or performer c : made, done, or given voluntarily or spontaneously
3 a : relieved from or lacking something unpleasant or burdensome b : not bound, confined, or detained by force
4 a : having no trade restrictions b : not subject to government regulation c of foreign exchange : not subject to restriction or official control
5 a : having no obligations (as to work) or commitments b : not taken up with commitments or obligations
6 : having a scope not restricted by qualification
7 a (1) : not obstructed or impeded : CLEAR (2) : not being used or occupied b : not hampered or restricted in its normal operation
8 a : not fastened b : not confined to a particular position or place; also : not having a specific opponent to cover in football c : capable of moving or turning in any direction d : performed without apparatus e : done with artificial aids (as pitons) used only for protection against falling and not for support
9 a : not parsimonious b : OUTSPOKEN c : availing oneself of something without stint d : FRANK, OPEN e : overly familiar or forward in action or attitude f : LICENTIOUS
10 : not costing or charging anything
11 a (1) : not united with, attached to, combined with, or mixed with something else : SEPARATE (2) : FREESTANDING b : chemically uncombined c : not permanently attached but able to move about d : capable of being used alone as a meaningful linguistic form -- compare 5BOUND 7
12 a : not literal or exact b : not restricted by or conforming to conventional forms
13 : FAVORABLE -- used of a wind blowing from a direction more than six points from dead ahead
14 : not allowing slavery
15 : open to all comers"

Notice that definition 10 says "not costing or charging anything" See I don't know though I might be wrong, I've seen the infomercials when the say that might give away something for free but you have to pay shipping and handling charges, so I don't know what there definition of free is.
Either way Becuase of this action I won't do any kind of bussiness at all with ebay. It seems shadey. I already sent an e-mail asking them why they charged me a dollar when it said it was free to register.

Well turns out Mark never won the case and it proves paypal can get away with unfair practices and hide behind the terms of service.

A thought, for the "free" complainer...

Are you sure it wasn't a $1 /hold/? A $1 or $0.01 hold (one which doesn't go on to become a charge) to make sure a card is legit is a very common business practice, and isn't going to end up costing you any money.

I can't thank you enough for having the heart and decency to bring your PayPal complaint to light. I was just searching around to see if there were any serious complaints against PayPal before I decide to use them in conjunction with my website(s). Yours is by far, the most hard-hitting complaint yet. After reading other comments on your website, I have decided definately NOT to use PayPal. Can you recommend a better service?

Fuck paypal! I registrated there today with my credit card (just registred, no transactions at all), and the next thing i know is that 30USD is taken from my account. There's no way to get in touch with them and on the phone i'm put on hold forever and forever, that cost alot of money when calling from half way around the world. SO FUCK THEM! Hope they die!!

Hi Marc

i have a file regarding paypal that i think would be very useful for you paypal hate campain.

Its 10mb i wondered if there was some way i could send it to you.

thanks

Hi all, i sent Mr Perkel another conversation with paypal where they decided to suspend my account for 180 days for absolutly no reason at all.... Maybe Mr Perkel will post it on his site for all you guys to listen too.

Thanks

PAYPAL RIPPED ME A NEW BUNGHOLE!!! FROZE MY ACCOUNT BECAUSE MOVED AND CHANGED MY EMAIL ADDRESS. i CALLED THEM AND THEY SAID TO FAX THEM THE INFO AND A BILL WITH MY NAME ON IT....I DID...NOW THEY WONT CONTACT ME AND WHEN I CONTACT THEM ABOUT IT ALL THEY CAN TELL ME IS GO TO THE WEBSITE. PAYPAL TRULY SUCKS!!!!!!

Hey, just wanted to let you know that I've been looking into what all Paypal has done to people in the past and saw your link posted on a message board and followed it. I can sum pay pal up in one word now: "Shit"

Needless to say, I cancelled my account just now and am posting to let you know.

Everyone needs to cancel their paypal accounts. There are other, more legit and safe ways to get your money to people who are buying or selling goods.

Let loose the dogs of war, and down with Paypal and Ebay (where I will never sell anything again).

my fucking money got tied up and they won't return it

Fuck paypal.

I dunno what the hell 'adult dating' is it sounds like something scuzzy but Paypal is even more scuzzy, that's fo sho. They screwed me out of five dollas.

Paypal is fucked up. you have all the rights man... how can these fuckers get away with stealing peoples money like this. this is absurd. i am closing my paypal account because of this, i do not want them fucking me over. may their business fall of the earth.

They are screwing 1000's of people, by the same bogus methods of freezing funds in accounts without merit -- and they're being sued by state AG's all over the map.

An eBay Company, BTW.

hey there you are so so right paypal does suck!!! I shardae deposited $600 into my partners account through paypal my partner ACCIDENTLY added the wrong bank acc number which i no is silly but just an honest mistake! paypal states on the website if money is posted into an account that doesnt exist it goes in2 their holding cell and gets sent back to the origional sender (me) we know there isnt a bank account number the same as my partner added as we have spent the past 8 months workin with our banks to try get the issue solved!! so if there is no account as the bank has said then the money should be returned to us rightfully! yet it still has not!! the really annoying thing is the size of this company and the amount of money they actually have im sure $600 isnt that much to them but to me and my partner its alot we still cant resolve this issue as we are in NewZealand miles away and there is no help over here!! ANY SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE AWESOME!! THANKS

They have almost $10k of my money locked. My ebay accts are 98% positive. No customers of mine filed a claim and yet paypal wont release my money. I wish paypal burns to the ground.

Man, I loved the recording. That was positively world class.

I guess that I’m lucky. I have to be one of the most cynical and suspicious people on earth. I got in with PP when they first went into operation. As soon as they asked for access to my bank account an alarm went off. I politely refused and ceased doing business with them. The CC on record has long since expired so I am totally free of them. And, I plan to stay that way!

Yes Paypal is corrupt.I luckily got away from them before they decided to keep my money.A few years ago I saw a news blip where they stated "We are not a bank, therefore not held accountable as a bank would be" meaning if you have any monies accrued in their so-called accounts they never have to pay out and there's shit you can do!Ebay is a scary place, you know they get a cut from Paypal,...YES??

I WAS ABOUT TO GET A PAYPAL ACCOUNT. BUT NOW THAT I'VE READ ALL THESE STORIES ABOUT THEM, THERE IS NO WAY THAT I WOULD EVEN THINK ABOUT IT. I REALLY THOUGHT THAT THEY WERE AN ESTABLISHED, WELL KNOWN COMPANY THAT YOU COULD TRUST WITH ALL YOUR PERSONAL INFORMATION AND MONEY. BUT THAT JUST GOES TO SHOW YOU HOW MONEY HUNGRY THIS WORLD IS GETTING TO BE. THANKS FOR HAVING THIS WEBSITE FOR PEOLPE LIKE ME WHO WAS VERY UNAWARE OF PAYPAL AND IT'S AFFILATES.

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT I SPOKE THE SAME SCOTT SENIOR RESOLUTION AGENT RELATED TO SAME ISSUE.FOR NO REASON THEY ARE HOLDING MY $4,600. THE BUYER ENJOYING THE PRODUCT PAYPAL ENJOYING THE MY OWN MONEY.I AM TRYING TO FILL FORMS TO GET REMOVE THE RESTRICTION TO GET MY MONEY, CALLING WAITING FOR MINUTES.ONLY THING I DID WAS TO TRY TRANSFER MY OWN MONEY TO MY ACCOUNT THERE IS NO COMPLAIN OR ANYTHING AND THEY STOP THE TRANSFER AND ENJOYING MY MONEY AND TELLING ME ITS MY MONEY HOWEVER SECURIY RESTRICTION>
SAME SCOTT TELLING DID YOU READ THE AGGREMENT IT IS ON THE USER AGGREMENT.I CANNOT BELEIVE I HAVE THE SIMILAR CONVERSATION WITH THE SAME SCOTT.

I sent a letter to Meg Whitman (pres. of eBay tho I hold no misconceptions about who reads the emails sent there) about PayPal about 6 months ago. They assume and act like everyone has every reason to trust PayPal, but almost everyone who has done any business on eBay knows that PayPal is run by a bunch of extortionists. Since then, when my response was essentially brushed off with their "trust us" propoganda, I've stopped buying & selling on eBay.

It's not because I don't want to buy, or I don't like eBay - it's because PayPal and eBay are engineered to bring in new customers and to disregard established customers. I won't support this with my dollars.

In addition, you'll note that eBay's dispute resolution is pretty shoddy - if you've been screwed by someone on eBay, don't rest with the bullshit Safe Harbor feeds you - go to your local police and Attorneys General - eBay needs to be held more accountable for the safety of its legitimate customers.

I must say...agreeing with everyone else here, shutting down my PayPal account as soon as my transaction for $30 USD goes through...only reason I'm letting it go through, is because the person I'm buying from is a trustworthy seller who actually directed me to this site and paypalsucks.com. She and I have been in constant contact since I won the item. I'm a little afraid, though. Once I close my account, PayPal will still have access to my bank account? I don't like that idea at all. How can I cut off all connections? Or will that require closing and opening a new account?

Anyway, great job Marc. You've convinced a lot of people to stop using Paypal, and I'm going to forward your site and everything I've learned to all my friends and pass it on. I think it's absolutely necessary because I don't want anybody I know to get screwed over by this. Or anyone else. Do as I'm doing! Forward this site to everyone you know to protect them!

PAYPAL violates federal privacy laws
Our corporation has a paypal account and as an officer of the corporation have a personal account. PayPal has recently suspended our corporate account due to one complaint on my personal account. They say the accounts are interlinked--I notified them that I was just an officer and that the paypal account was owned by the corporation. They had me fax over our corporate banking signature cards, inventory invoices, driver's license, American Express merchant account information, etc, etc. PayPal lifted the suspension on the corporate account after meeting their demands (federal law prohibits business' requesting copies of driver’s license) and after the suspension was lifted our corporation attempted to transfer funds to their banking account, PayPal again suspended the account because of the " link" of the coprorate account and the officer's personal account. We would like to know if anyone else as encountered unjust treatment from PayPal; how it was resolved if so, any recommendations you can provide, or would be interested in filing a class action lawsuit for their violation of infringing on your privacy rights by requesting a faxed copy of your driver's license.
Thank you

At one time PayPal was the only game in town, but now there are PP competitors popping up everywhere, both inside and outside the USA.

For example we've learned about a PP alternative called YOWCOW; unfortunately they are based overseas, and we feel anxious that using a non-USA service might be a risk in itself. Can anyone personally recommend an alternative to PP which is based in the USA? Or even personally recommend YOWCOW?

Help !!!!! what are the alternatives to Pay/Pal??? I was 30 days away from putting pay pal on my website. Thanks!!!
If anyone could point me in the direction of another way to accept credit cards. Without alot of extra or hidden costs.

getnlucky@hotmail.com

I'm having Paypal such since from 2002, using it buying stuffs from ebay, This Oct 2004 I'm start selling my goods to ebay, And about 1 month after Paypal Limited My Acct and I been on phone holding for 2 hours to get customer service " 2 hours for them to pick up mother fuking Phone " and ask why They limited. She Said someone sent money to my account 300$ from no-where actually it "REFUNDED" to the sender. And They Limited my account for that reason! been 2005 Now. Not access to my account with is 700$ left in it.

Paypal SUKASSSSSSSSS

I feel for you m8! Once i found this out i showed it to my bro i think me and him are gonna close our accounts. WHAT THE FUCK GIVES THEM THE RIGHT TO TAKE ANYONES MONEY. No matter what any1 in this world says NO ONE CAN TAKE MONEY ITS STEALING! If you went to the law with this you could win the case! If someone had an account and had $2000 dollars in the account and they took it would you let them have it for 180 days (6 months) or take it to the law. Mark if you havent been to the law yet i suggest that you do.

(i am not link advertising) Is there any stories about NoChex doing anything like this?

Paypal got me as well, in basically the exact same manner. I got $3500.00 in Paypal right now, frozen for 180 days. I withdrew my money on the 10th of January and on 13th January they froze my money and gave me a limited access to my account. The cancelled transferring my money and basically stated that they will keep my money for the entire 180 days and there was nothing that I can do about it. Now, I have to wait until July 2005 to get my money.

DO NOT USE PAYPAL!!! IT'S THE BIGGEST SCAM ON THE PLANET! THEY CAN FREEZE YOUR ACCOUNT FOR ANY REASON AND HOLD YOUR MONEY HOSTAGE FOR 180 DAYS, AND THERE WILL BE NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT!! EVERY DIME OF MONEY PLACED IN PAYPAL BY PAYPAL CUSTOMERS IS PAYPAL'S UNTIL THEY DEEM TO LET YOU HAVE IT!! IT'S AS IF YOUR MONEY IS NOT YOURS UNTIL YOU ARE TOLD THAT IT'S YOURS!!

My feedback has been scarred because of the same exact thing! I feel your pain buddy!

Anyone know any government agencies to complain to that will get our money from PayPal Inc?

Please list addresses and tele numbwers if known.

Will small claims courts work if we are in New York and they where ever?

Please email US at ABA2004D@YAHOO.COM

I am a real estate agent and I also have my own wholesale company. Just so the people of this world know you do not have to have an account with paypal to get screwed by them. I had $400.00 removed from my buisness account causing a loss of over $850.00 to my buisness. My customer paid with paypal and although they say it is secure they do sell your account information. when I contacted my back I was told the withdrawel was done through pay pal. When I contacted them they told mein a very condisending manner that it was my problem not theres. Need less to say I was not able to get my money back. Since I have closed All E-bay accounts and I worn people every chance I get. Thank you for the opportinuty for me to tell people how they cost me my buisness.

Thank you Arleen

That is total bullshit. I am forwarding this url to my legislators.

In finland it is a beauty that you can record if YOU are talking with someone.

No matter is there permission, as long that is you who is talking with someone :)

and yeah, Paypal Sucks.

I too am another Paypal victim - along with my mom who just had 2 strokes, my husband who was deployed to Afghanistan in the 82nd airborne, and a friend from NY. Altogether, we have lost a total of a little over $20,000 in a few short months - none of it ever recovered for any of us. The reason? "one or more of your buyers have reported suspicious activity". Funny, My husband nor I ever sold a thing - only bought things off of Ebay. AND how can he, esp. have a buyer ot any activity for that matter, when he is in Kandahaar with NO tv's, much less internet! The case with my mom, well, on Thanksgiving day of this year she had a stroke. Then, as she was flying on American Airlines on her way out here to Phoenix to visit me since I was all alone for Christmas, she has another stroke at the Dallas-Fort Worth hub. Needless to say I couldn't get a ticket out there b/c Paypal had all our money!She was all alone on Christmas, paralyzed on the right side, and I was all alone with a paralyzed heart. I have her power of attorney now, since the CVA's, and so I faxed those into Paypal, along with her medical records and even had our family attorney call and explain the situation so that they might give us our money. No luck there either. I have faxed "4 rounds" a piece of all my info, My husband's info, and my mom's info. Total cost is over $300, since I have to go to Office max to fax anything. I would do just about anything to send those bastards straight to hell. Anyone wanna help me? Anyone got any ideas?

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