Marc Perkel Rantz

Fed Intrest Rate Hike - Might be the last straw

The FED raised the interest rate today and it might be the last straw that will break the fragile economy. We are running on totally false numbers. Gas prices and energy prices spiraling out of control - health care costs in double digit inflation - and wages continue to drop. This is insanity and things are about to break. America is on the verge of collapse.

Someone at Democratic Underground Met Clinton and said ...

Someone met Clinton yesterday in Santa Clara and reported tha Clinton is taking this election seriously. Let's hope it's true.

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My husband, a fellow DUer, and I met the Big Dog, the Honorable William Jeffereson Clinton, last night at a fancy, shmanzy fundraiser in California. Through contacts, we were able to gain entrance to this exclusive event of the Democratic Party elite. We dined on barbeque and enjoyed the view at a "hillrop retreat" in Santa Clara Valley.

We were interviewed by the media as we approached the grounds of the home. One reporter implied that my husband, who was carrying Mr, Clinton's book, had just bought it that morning to bring to the event. He launched into a tirade about how he'd had the book for days, and how Mr. Clinton was the best President of his lifetime,etc.

We waited out in the sun for an hour or so, eating and drinking, until the President made his appearance with Nancy Pelosi. Of course he was greeted like a rock star. I was about ten feet from him, and, if you will allow a personal comment, he was even more handsome than in phographs,and very svelte. He is really in good shape! His first move was to thank the jazz band that was playing. He shook every band member's hand and had a word with each of them. He thanked the firefighters who were manning the barbeques. Yay, firefighers!

But the President was in a serious mood, and he gave a serious speech. There were moments of humor, but the theme was urgency. He actually said that if, heaven forbid, the * wins this Fall, AND the repukes retain control of both houses again, our country will not the same. I think his exact words were "You won't recognize this great country." He ended with a plea to tell everyone we know what is happening and what is at stake in this election. He told us to talk to people in words that they can understand, and to explain to them what cuts are being made in education, health care, and after school programs just so that people like him can have a tax cut. He was particularly biting and sarcastic about tax policy and the deficit.

He made fun of the repukes selling themselves as the party of fiscal discipline. He said they were more like teenagers who had been given their inheritance too early and couldn't wait to blow it!

Brothers and Sisters, the Big Dog was serious last night. He did not smile during his speech. He KNOWS what's at stake and he was begging us to do EVERYTHING we can to stop *, and to win back the House, the Senate, or both. I'm just the messenger. Think of this man, of all he has endured and sacrificed on our behalf(knowing, of course, that he is not perfect). He is scared, and we should be, too. NOW LET'S DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!

Republicans Fail to hide raising Debt Limits

At least Republicans are at least still embarrased about their borrow and spend politics and have tried to hide raising the borrowing limit inside the defense spending bill. Basically ther way it worked was that there would be language in the bill that would make financing a national secutity issue and thus in times of (fake) war the debt limits wouldn't apply - allowing Republicans to borrow and spend without the embarrassment of being seen raising the debt limits during an election year. The Democrats finally found the balls to stop it.

Saudi's Own 7% of America

According to the Michael Moore movie Fahrenheight 9/11 Saudi Araiba owns 7% of America. With the growing deficit that percentage is increasing. Soon America will be under Saudi control and we will basically be their slaves.

Bush's tax cust are a means of transferring America's wealth and power to the Saudi royal family. The Saudi's no longer pay taxes - but the still pay - but now it's in loads. We are borrowing money from them - paying higher gas prices to them - making them richer - and America is becomming more indebeted to them. Once they own us - we will become Sauds.

Will we be forced to become Muslim and live under Muslim law? Will we have public beheadings like the Saudis do? Will women be forced to wear burkas? I guess we'll find out if Bush is reselected. Because the deficit will soon climb to over 1 trillion dollars a year - and the percentage of foreign ownership of America will grow. And once we are owned - you can kill American soveriengty goodbye.

Fahrenheit 9/11 - Makes me glad Gore didn't run again

I just saw the movie. Loved it! But the beginning sceenes reminded me about how angry I was with Gore after the 2000 selection. This movie is not just anti-bush. It's also very anti-Gore and very accurate indead.

I remember when it came to to confirm bush as president members of the Congress wanted to speak out about the fraud that had just occurred and it was Gore who was shouting us down and preventing us from speaking out.

Gore wanted to be a gracious loser - but what Gore doesn't get is that this election wasn't about him. It was about the people of America and we had something to say and it wasn't up to him to make that decision. And the movie really captures that.

Having said that - I also didn't know the extent that Bush and the bin Ladens were business partners and now it's pretty obvious why Bush isn't going after bin Laden anymore. It's because bin Laden did Bush a favor with 9-11 and Bush cares more about bin Laden and his Saudi friends than about Americans.

Unlike "The Day After Tomorrow" - a movie that truely sucked - Fahrenheit 9/11 is definitely a keeper. And for those of you who hate Democrats - there's a lot in there for you too. Moore's movie crosses party lines and give you a far more accurate version of reality that you see in the evening news on Television. me and the Sturdy Wench give the movie 2 thumbs up - a must see.

Green Party Awakens to Reality

Finally figuring it out that if not for Nader and the Green Party - Bush wouldn't be president. I guess they decided not to make the same mistake twice and rejected the Republican backed Nader as their candidate. Good for them for finally getting it.

Supreme Court Rules Republican Presidents protected from Vexatious Litigation

The Supreme Court has a different standard for Republican Presidents and Democratic Presidents. Democrats have to face trial - Republicans get a pass! In the case of Dick Cheney the Supreme Court ruled:

Court won't order Cheney Papers Released!

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, writing for the majority, said the federal district court judge who ordered records opened to the public had issued too broad a release of documents, without giving appropriate deference to the White House.

The president is not above the law, Kennedy wrote, but there is a "paramount necessity of protecting the executive branch from vexatious litigation that might distract it from the energetic performance of its constitutional duties."

He said "special considerations applicable to the president and the vice president suggest that the courts should be sensitive to requests by the government" in such special appeals.

But when Clinton was president they ruled differently saying that they didn't see a problem with Paula Jones bringing a bullshit lawsuit against the president. He had plenty of time to defend it back then. What a crock of shit this is!

Unanimous Supreme Court says there is no constitutional barrier to harassment suit against president

WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, May 27 1997) -- A unanimous Supreme Court ruled today that there is nothing in the U.S. Constitution that bars Jones' lawsuit from proceeding against the president while he is still in office.

The court said, "Like every other citizen who properly invokes [court] jurisdiction, [Jones] has a right to an orderly disposition of her claims."

The court rejected Clinton's claims that lawsuits against presidents in office violate the separation of powers between the judicial branch and the executive branch.

Clinton's lawyers had also argued that lawsuits would interfere with presidents' official duties, and that permitting Jones' case to go forward would open the way to an avalanche of lawsuits against sitting presidents.

In an opinion written by Justice John Paul Stevens, the court said, "We are not persuaded that either of these risks is serious."

You see - when the president is a Democrat you get one set of rules - but when the president is a Republican the Supreme Court rules the opposite. And you have to consider the seriousness of the crime. Cheney was meeting with Oil Executives who were shutting electricity off to the entire west coast and planning a war with Iraq. Jones on the other hand had a much more seroius issue. That Clinton showd her his cock.

Jesus fucking Christ - the Moonies must be in control. Only if you lived in a CULT would something like this make sense!

America is a Christian Nation - Controlled by the Moonies

Well finally the "mainstream media" has caught up with the Internet. CBS News finally ran the story of the Reverend Syung Mung Moon being corrinated as the messiah by members of Congress in the Dirkson office building. I blogged about it weeks ago. Where is NBC, ABC and CNN on this story? Hiding it. That's because the moonies are so powerful that they can bury this story. It's not what you see in the news that's scary - it's what you don't see.

Moon owns a lot of the media - He owns United Press International - and The Washington Times. Daddy Bush is a regular paid speaker at Moon mass weddings and Moon is the one behind the take down the cross put up the crown movement. The Christians do run America - the Moonie Christians. And as you can see, members of Congress are crowning him King. So it's official. Who are the true Christians? The Moonies are! Hail the Moonies - the only True Christians!

Its funny - Christians have been calling America a Christian nation with out a clue as to why we have the separation of Church and State. They just don't get it. So - maybe they will get it now. Yes - the Christians have taken over and they rule America. But - which Christians are in charge? The Moonies are in charge. So Christians - how do you feel about that? How do you like living in a nation where the Moonies control the state?

Religion controling government is a great idea when it's your religion that's running it. But if it's someone else's religion - then that's a very different story.

Christians have emailed me and said - "America is a Christian nation - and if you don't like it - get out!" Well - America is a Christian moonie nation - and if you don't like being a Moonie - get out!

Feels kind of different to be on the other side of that - doesn't it?

Here's a piece of the CBS Story:

The Washington Post reported that Moon received a crown that was placed on his head. The crown was carried on a pillow by Rep. Danny K. Davis, D-Ill., who wore white gloves, the newspaper said.

The Post said Moon, 85, delivered a lengthy speech at the "Crown of Peace" ceremony. The newspaper quoted Moon as saying he was "sent to Earth . . . to save the world's six billion people. . . . Emperors, kings and presidents . . . have declared to all Heaven and Earth that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent."

So - you see Christians - you were right. Jesus has returned in the form of the reverened Syung Myung Moon. Moon is officially Jesus because America is a Christian nation - and the nation officially crowned Moon messiah. And if the government crowns you messiah - which they just did - then it's official. America officially recognizes Moon as Lord - our father - the True Parents.

From this day forward your religion as you have know it is over. You will worship Reverened Moon as God - the True Messiah. Jesus has returned. Resistance is futule. You will be assimilated. You are hereby ordered by the authority of the United States of America to bend your knee and pray to Moon now and to publically acknowledge that Moon is Christ returning.

Look Christians - this is about your eternal soul. Do you want to Burn in Hell forever? I don't think so. Well - there's only one way for you to save yourself and that is to accept the True Father into your heart and worship HIM. Reverened Moon is your true father and he has demonstrated his authority by having America - the greatest Christian nation on Earth - crown him King. Why else would former presidents like poppy Bush speak at Moon mass weddings? Why else is the leadership of the christian world sucking up to him? How do you explain miracles like this if Moon isn't the true father? Are you going to take a change with your soul and risk frying in Hell forever? It's time to bend your knee and worship Moon the way these members of Congress are. Democrats and Republicans joining together in harmony to worship Moon. This has to be a miracle! God is making it happen for Reverend Sun Myung Moon!

How about it Christians? Sounds kind of funny being on the other side of that - doesn't it? of cource - as the Founder of the Church of Reality I think all Christian religions are just as stupid. But I wanted to push the issue a little so that you can experience what it's like to be on the other side. How does that feel?

Record Sales for Clinton's Book

Bill Clinton's new book has outsold any book in history for first day sales. It may sell more copies than any book in history. Boy do the Clinton haters hate that. The media reviewers say the book is boring. But the public thinks different and are voting with their dollars. So - who is right? The public is.

Clinton is after all America's greatest president. And that's why everyone is so interested in him. We all long to go back to Clinton's America when we had peace and prosperity - when we were wondering what we were going to do with the surplus and people were suffering from "sudden wealth syndrome". Now we have war and terror - big brother reading our email - tracing our moves - listening to our phone calls - watching everything we buy and where we go - watching everything we do. We are so far in debt that we are afraid to think about it let alone talk about it. Americans are not safe anywhere and we talk about our alies like France and Canada as if they were our enemies.

American has fallen and we look back to the good old days and think about how great Clinton was. And we want to read his book because we want to compare him to our present day loser and wonder - can we ever go back? What happened to the Man from Hope?

Americans view Iraqis/Muslims as Subhuman

It pretty clear that the government of America views Iraqis and Muslims as subhuman. For example - it was announced that a civilian contractor was going to be put on trial for "Assult" for his role in the "Abuses" at Abu Ghraib Prison.

This guy didn't "abuse" or "assult" the prisoner. He tortured the prisoner by beating him, kicking him, and punching him till he dies. This guy tortured the man to death.

If that happened to an American - it would be murder. We would be calling it a war crime and we would seek the death penalty. But because he is an Iraqi - a beating to death becomes "abuse" rather than a horrific murder. You see - hilling an Iraqi and killing an American are two different things entirely. Killing an Iraqi doesn't even generate the kind of outrage that someone abusing an American dog or cat would get.

Now - how is this different the beheadings of Americans? Well - beheadings are more grusome to look at when pictures are released. But a beheading is actually a lot less painful than being kicked to death. If I were the prisoner and I was given a choice between beheading and being kicked to death - I'd have to go with the beheading.

My point is - I'm not justifying the beheadings - I'm unjustifying the "abuses" of Iraqis that are really grusome murders. The American contractor is a war criminal and her should be turned over to the Iraqis for trial in Iraq for torture and murder. Not only should he face thise charges - but everyone who commanded him all the way up the chain of command should be put on trial for international war crimes - including General Sanchez - Rumsfield, and Bush. These are the people who ordered the rapes, torture, and murders.

Memo Authorizing Torture Released

Here is the full version of the Memo Authorizing Torture that Bush passed out creating the excuse to torture the prisoners at Abu Ghraib Prison. This memo was written by a lawyer working for John Ashcroft named Jay S. Bybee who has been appointed as a judge on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

This memo is an act of treason and this guy should be in jail - not serving as a judge. I intend to file a judicial complaint against him - as if it would do any good. I hope some prosecutor files criminal charges against this mother fucker.

This memo however is the perfect defense for those at the bottom who are being court martialed for torture. All that have to do is point to the memo and say - "Hey - how I supposed to know it was illegal? A federal judge on the court of appeals thinks it's legal? Am I - someone who was flipping burgers at McDonalds supposed to know the law better than the Justice Department?"

You see - the responsibility is at the top.

Here's what really went down. Bush and Rumsfield decided they wanted to torture people. So they said - we need a legal memo to cover our asses - so we can justify this if we get caught. So - Ashcroft gets ByBee to torture the law and write the memo. They were so impressed with his legal twistings that they appointed him to be a federal judge.

Bishops and Morality

Letter to the Editor

I find the idea of Catholic Bishops endorsing the idea that those who approve of abortion aren't fit to receive communion to be somewhat amusing. There's an old saying - those without sin should cast the first stone. And - even though no one really holds to those standards - I really think that the Bishops should focus on the issue of priests having sex with children before they represent themselves as being moral enough to give communion - let alone decide who should receive it.

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It's amazing the bishops who are against abortion yet silent on priests fucking children. I guess they haven't figured out that fucking children adds to the need for abortion.

The whole ritual of communion is rather bizzare when you think about it. The pedifiles have these crackers which they claim is "The Body of Christ" and you're supposed to eat this to get in heaven - and if you don't eat it - God will punish you and burn you in Hell forever. What scares the hell out of me is that there's people out there who actually believe this!

Another fake terrorist arrest in swing state of Ohio

This one looks as fishy as the rest that turned out to be fake. Fake terror alters and fake prosecutions put America at risk. The GOP is using this as an election tactic.

COLUMBUS, Ohio June 15, 2004 — Like thousands of fellow Somalis leaving behind brutal clan warfare, Nuradin Abdi settled in this city known for relatively mild weather, plentiful jobs and, in recent years, an abundance of shopping malls.

Just months after the government granted Abdi asylum, however, federal authorities say he was plotting to blow up one of those malls, exactly the type of target some feared would be next on terrorists' lists. Attorney General John Ashcroft said charges revealed Monday against Abdi serve as a reminder that al-Qaida is determined "to hit the United States and hit us hard."

But the portrait painted of Abdi by the government is in sharp contrast to the one offered by his family, who insist he is innocent and describe a man who hated terrorists.

Abdi, who operated a small cell phone business, loved his new freedoms and never spoke out against the U.S. government, said his brother Mohamed AbdiKarani, 17. Abdi has a son and daughter and his wife is pregnant.

"He loved it here. He never had as much freedom. He said it's good to raise his kids here," AbdiKarani said. "He really hated terrorists. You know how (President) Bush hates terrorists? I think he hates them more."

Abdi is accused of conspiring with convicted al-Qaida operative Iyman Faris a former Columbus truck driver who sought to sabotage the Brooklyn Bridge to bomb a mall in the area, though the FBI said no specific mall was targeted.

Abdi, 32, was arrested at his apartment Nov. 28, the day after Thanksgiving when malls across America were crowded with shoppers. He was held at first on immigration violations, authorities said.

Charges in the four-count indictment include providing material support to al-Qaida, conspiracy to provide material support and document fraud. If convicted on all charges, Abdi could be sentenced to up to 80 years in prison and fined $1 million.

The FBI has warned al-Qaida might shift away from trying to hit tightly guarded installations, such as government buildings or nuclear plants, to more vulnerable targets such as malls, apartment buildings or hotels.

Court papers filed by the government allege that a plot dated to March 2000 when Abdi returned from a terrorist training camp in Ethiopia to join Faris in Columbus.

Bush Planting WMD in Iraq?

U.S. Trucks Carrying Radioactive Materials Intercepted In Iraq-Kuwait Border

TEHRAN (MNA) -– The UAE-based daily Al-Khaleej reported on Monday that Kuwaiti tariff officials have intercepted a truck loaded with radioactive materials in the Iraq-Kuwait border.

The daily quoted informed sources as saying that the radioactive control team from Kuwait’s Health Ministry discovered that one of the trucks belonging to the U.S.-led coalition forces was carrying heavy radioactive materials trucks. The trucks were headed for Iraq.

The daily said that such materials could only enter a country when there is permission from related bodies while the materials were secretly being carried to Iraq.

Security forces stressed that no contamination had been caused by the material.

The MNA reported for the first time the coalition forces’ suspicious transfer of WMD parts from Kuwait to Southern Iraq by trucks.

The possible presence of WMD in Iraq and its likely nuclear programs were the main U.S. pretext for attacking the country.

However, their failure to find weapons of mass destruction in the country and the continuing turmoil in Iraq questioned the legitimacy of the U.S. war against Iraq and their presence in the country.

Supreme Court sets back Father's Rights

In the process of ducking the issue on "under God" in the pledge the Supreme Court dealt a severe blow to father's rights. Technically I really mean the non-custodial parents rights - but in America the family courts are severely slanted in favor of women. Basically - what the court ruled was that when the State teaches your kids that "Mommy's religion is right and daddy's religion is wrong" then daddy has no standing in court to sue.

I'd bet if the issue weren't the pledge but it was a school that was leading Christian Children to praise Allah - that the father would have had standing to sue.

For those who think this was a victory for "under god" - it wasn't. The court ducked that issue because they are cowards. Someone else with a better of facts and no custodial issues will bring it again.

PayPal Sucks - Closed my Account - Keeping my Money

I'm in the process of building my PayPal sucks site and this blog entry is the first step. It's the art of being an asshole. I'm sure I'm not the only one that PayPal has ripped off and probably won't be the last - but I will be the one they remember the most.

I got an email today from PayPal that they are closing my account. The reason for closing my account is that they claim they don't like the content of my web site - specifically my site on Sexual Issues where I have my Men's Guide to Escort Services - a guide to interacting with hookers, The Nerd's Guide to Sex - a guide teaching men how to properly have sex with women, and The Shy Girl's Guide to Becoming a Whore - a women's guide to surviving the Bush Ecomony.

So - because they didn't like my web site content they not only decided to cancel my PayPal account - but to also keep my money for 180 days. And - I had transfered my money out of PayPal yesterday - but after closing my account today they reversed yesterday's transaction and are going to steal my money.

The people at PayPay are real mother fuckers. But I to am an asshole and I don't get mad - I get even. Whenever I get screwed by someone I use my talents of being a real prick to turn the tables on them and make them feel the heat.

PayPal claims that according to their End User Agreement that they have the right to close down my account for any reason whatsoever - without any form of recourse - keep my money for 180 days - and there's nothing that I can do about it. Well Paypal you on wrong about that because there's a lot to do about it.

I am a person who values free speech and fights hard against censorship and the Corparations like eBay who owns PayPay who think they can come in and tell ME what I can say on the Internet. Well I say - fuck you PayPal! I will not only keep my right to FREE SPEECH but I will use that right to expose you for what you really are.

Now - for those of you who are reading this - you probably don't entirely grasp the details of what I'm talking about. You think - this is PayPal - they have to be more ethical than that don't they? I say - yes they do. So I called them on the phone about it to get them to explain it to me in their own words. And I RECORDED THE CONVERSTATION IN THIS MP3 FILE SO YOU ALL CAN HERE IT FOR YOURSELF!

First things first. The file you are listening to is edited. But the important content is unaltered. I removed about 20 minutes of on hold messages so that you wouldn't have to sit through the wait time. The rest of it is everything that was said between me and PayPal.

What really fun about this is that I got them to say just exactly what they did to me and how they ripped me off and how they aren't going to do anything to fix it. What you hear is a real life detailed experience that I had and what PayPal's end user agreement really means to you - so that if you are thinking about doing business with PayPal - or you are already a PayPal or eBay customer - you might want to reread that user agreement and see if this is really what you want to be agreeing to.

In the recorded conversation - after getting them to plainly explain how they are screwing me - I anounce to them that I have recorded this phone call - and that I'm going to put it on the Internet. All of a sudden it is them flipping out and screaming about their rights - but - there's nothing they can do about it. You see - I'm not the only one who has no choice. When I dialed up PayPal - the very first thing their machine said was, "This call may be recorded." So - I recorded it. Listen to the squeal about their rights - but I don't give a fuck about their rights because they don't give a fuck about my rights.

The big corps think they hold all the cards - but there are things that we consumers can do to fight back. After all 0 this is a country of the people, by the people, and for the people. Not of big corporation who think they can enslave us and walk over us any time they want to. I want this web site to be a turtorial about how people like you and me can stand up to these motherfuckers and show them that the People rule. And we do that by taking money out of their pockets.

Now - there are plenty of other people out there with similar stories of being censored or otherwise ripped off be PayPal and the comment section is open for you to tell your PayPal story. Go ahead and put in links to other PayPay sucks sites and tell us who is better. It's time that the online community organized to move away from unethical corporations like eBay who owns PayPal and find services who will play ball with us on OUR TERMS.

And - I want you to let PayPal know that you saw this web site and let them know what you think aboiut it. Here is an Email Form to tell them - you saw it hear - you listened to the recording - and what you think about it.

One think to keep in mind is - PayPal is not a bank - nor do you have the protection that banks offer. They are also not a credit card company. They act like they are a fiscal instution but Master Card and Visa aren't playing moral police with me. And as you can see - if they decide to take your money - they just take it. Even if you transfer your money out of paypal the day before they close your account.

Also - if you are going to link to this page - don't use the blog url. Use this URL instead:

http://paypal.ctyme.com/paypal/paypalsucks.htm

Here's another PayPal Warning Site I found.

Other PayPal Sucks Sites:

http://www.paypalsucks.com/
http://www.internationalterrorist.com/paypal.html
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/04/05/18/0128201.shtml?tid=126&tid=153&tid=172&tid=93&tid=95&tid=99
http://www.gnutellanews.com/article/12148
http://www.tcj.com/messboard/ubb/Forum1/HTML/007500.html
http://seclists.org/lists/politech/2003/Mar/0040.html
http://dir.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/02/23/pay_pal/index.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/paypal.html
http://www.aboutpaypal.org/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/paypalperil/
http://www.outofthedark.com/CorporateWars/PayPal/index.html
http://www.ygoodman.com/paypal.asp

What is PayPal?

PayPal is an online service that allows you to email money to other people.

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Why is my account access limited?

Your account access has been limited for the following reason(s):
# Jun. 13, 2004: In accordance with PayPal's User Agreement and Acceptable Use Policy, we have closed your account. Your funds may be held for 180 days from the date of your last transaction. After 180 days, you will be able to access your funds by requesting an online bank transfer or, if applicable, a check from PayPal. Please update your address or bank information as we cannot be held responsible for checks issued to an incorrect address. We do ask that you please remove reference(s) to PayPal from your site.

(Your case ID for this reason is PP-040-853-646.)

Bush's idea of a full and open investigation

Bush promised a "full accounting" for "cruel and disgraceful abuse of Iraqi detainees." He said the treatment is an "insult to the Iraqi people" and an "affront to the most basic standards of morality and decency." He said those involved will "answer for their conduct in an orderly and transparent process."

Document warns Guantanamo employees not to talk

By Toni Locy, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON — Military and civilian employees at the U.S. prison for suspected terrorists at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, were warned recently not to talk with attorneys who represent detainees held there, according to a document prepared by the legal office of the Army-led task force that runs the facility.

The document, obtained by USA TODAY, says that soldiers and interrogators are not required to give defense attorneys statements about the "personal treatment of detainees" or any "failure to report actions of others." It also says that refusing to cooperate with defense attorneys "will not impact your career."

The warning — titled "Interaction with Defense Counsel" — has surfaced at a time when the treatment of the nearly 600 detainees at Guantanamo is under scrutiny because of the abuse and sexual humiliation of Iraqis in U.S. custody at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, former commander at Guantanamo, went to Iraq last year to share interrogation techniques used in Cuba.

A Defense Department spokesman said the document was aimed at ensuring that Guantanamo employees "know what their rights are." The spokesman said the references to detainee treatment are "relevant examples that make such training better."

Military law analysts and human rights advocates agree that Guantanamo employees should be advised against making incriminating statements. But they say the advice should be neutral.

The document "suggests that there is something that needs to be hidden" about how detainees are being treated, says Scott Silliman, a Duke University law professor and a former Air Force lawyer. "It suggests that the default should be: Don't talk."

Gary Solis, a retired Marine lieutenant colonel, says he gave similar advice to witnesses when he was a military prosecutor. "There's no impropriety," says Solis, who teaches law at Georgetown University. But "the context of this advice gives the appearance of encouraging (people) to be less than forthcoming."

The Pentagon has been secretive about interrogation tactics at Guantanamo, where suspected al-Qaeda and Taliban operatives have been held for more than two years.

President Bush has designated six Guantanamo detainees for trial by military tribunal. Four have been assigned military defense lawyers, who want to question interrogators, soldiers and other detainees. The lawyers want to explore whether evidence against their clients was gathered through abusive tactics. Three of the six detainees have been charged.

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Here's the investigation that Bush promised:

Third, because America's committed to the equality and dignity of all people, there will be a full accounting for the cruel and disgraceful abuse of Iraqi detainees. Conduct that has come to light is an insult to the Iraqi people and an affront to the most basic standards of morality and decency.

One basic difference between democracies and dictatorships is that free countries confront such abuses openly and directly. In January, shortly after reports of abuse became known to our military, an investigation was launched.

Today, several formal investigations led by senior military officials are under way. Secretary Rumsfeld has appointed several former senior officials to review the investigations of these abuses. Some soldiers have already been charged and those involved will answer for their conduct in an orderly and transparent process.

Bush no longer talks about the RAPE ROOMS

Bush doesn't talk about the rape rooms any more now that it turns out that US forces were raping Iraqi men, women, and children.

Rape Rooms, A Chronology

by William Saletan, Slate

May 6, 2004

"The Iraqi people are now free. And they do not have to worry about the secret police coming after them in the middle of the night, and they don't have to worry about their husbands and brothers being taken off and shot, or their wives being taken to rape rooms. Those days are over."Paul Bremer, Administrator, [Iraq] Coalition Provisional Authority, Sept. 2, 2003

"Iraq is free of rape rooms and torture chambers."President Bush, remarks to 2003 Republican National Committee Presidential Gala, Oct. 8, 2003

"There was an announcement by the Iraqi Governing Council earlier this week about the tribunal that they have set up to hold accountable members of the former regime who were responsible for three decades of brutality and atrocities. We know about the mass graves and the rape rooms and the torture chambers of Saddam Hussein's regime. We welcome their decision to move forward on a tribunal to hold people accountable for those atrocities."Bush Press Secretary Scott McClellan, White House press briefing, Dec. 10, 2003



"One thing is for certain: There won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms."Bush, press availability in Monterrey, Mexico, Jan. 12, 2004

"On 19 January 2004, Lieutenant General (LTG) Ricardo S. Sanchez, Commander, Combined Joint Task Force Seven (CJTF-7) requested that the Commander, US Central Command, appoint an Investigating Officer (IO) in the grade of Major General (MG) or above to investigate the conduct of operations within the 800^th Military Police (MP) Brigade. LTG Sanchez requested an investigation of detention and internment operations by the Brigade from 1 November 2003 to present. LTG Sanchez cited recent reports of detainee abuse."Report by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba to Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, senior U.S. military official in Iraq, describing a formal inquiry launched on Jan. 19, 2004

"Sources have revealed new details from the Army's criminal investigation into reports of abuse of Iraqi detainees, including the location of the suspected crimes and evidence that is being sought. U.S. soldiers reportedly posed for photographs with partially unclothed Iraqi prisoners, a Pentagon official told CNN on Tuesday."Barbara Starr, CNN, Jan. 21, 2004

"Saddam Hussein now sits in a prison cell, and Iraqi men and women are no longer carried to torture chambers and rape rooms"Bush, remarks on "Winston Churchill and the War on Terror," Feb. 4, 2004

"Seventeen U.S. soldiers have been suspended of duties pending the outcome of the investigation into alleged allegations of abuse of Iraqi prisoners, a U.S. officer said Monday."Associated Press, Feb. 23, 2004

"[B]etween October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force. The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence. I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;

f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female soldier pose for a picture;

k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee

These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements.

In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. Threatening male detainees with rape;

g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick."

Executive summary of Taguba report, finalized Feb. 29, 2004, briefed to superiors on March 3, 2004, and submitted in final form on March 9, 2004

"Every woman in Iraq is better off because the rape rooms and torture chambers of Saddam Hussein are forever closed."Bush, remarks on "Efforts to Globally Promote Women's Human Rights," March 12, 2004

"There's still remnants of that regime that would like to take it back. They could torture people and have rape rooms, and the world would turn their head from that and let it happen. But they can't do that anymore."Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, BBC interview, March 16, 2004

"There are no more rape rooms and torture chambers in Iraq."National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, CBS Early Show, March 19, 2004

"As you know, on 14 January 2004, a criminal investigation was initiated to examine allegations of detainee abuse at the Baghdad confinement facility at Abu Ghraib. Shortly thereafter, the commanding general of Combined Joint Task Force Seven requested a separate administrative investigation into systemic issues such as command policies and internal procedures related to detention operations. That administrative investigation is complete; however, the findings and recommendations have not been approved. As a result of the criminal investigation, six military personnel have been charged with criminal offenses to include conspiracy, dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault, and indecent acts with another."--Brigadier Gen. Mark Kimmitt, Deputy Director for Coalition Operations, Coalition Provisional Authority Briefing, March 20, 2004

"Correspondent Brooke Hart: But in a 53-page secret report, Army Major General Antonio Taguba says an investigation found a disturbing pattern of sadistic, blatant, wanton criminal abuses. The report was completed in February, but the Pentagon said Defense Secretary Rumsfeld hadn't read it. Democratic lawmakers are frustrated. Sen. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M.: This is an unacceptable response. That's not the level of concern the American people would expect of their military commanders for this type of conduct.""Pentagon officials to answer tough questions from the Senate Armed Services Committee regarding Iraqi prisoner abuse," CNBC, April 4, 2004

"SFC Snider grabbed my prisoner and threw him into a pile.. I saw SSG Frederic, SGT Davis and CPL Graner walking around the pile hitting the prisoners. I remember SSG Frederick hitting one prisoner in the side of its [sic] ribcage. The prisoner was no danger to SSG Frederick. I saw two naked detainees, one masturbating to another kneeling with its mouth open."Testimony of Military Police Specialist Matthew Wisdom, hearing on charges of prisoner abuse, April 9, 2004; according to The New Yorker, "After the hearing, the presiding investigative officer ruled that there was sufficient evidence to convene a court-martial."

"The investigation started after SPC Darby got a CD from CPL Graner. He came across pictures of naked detainees."Testimony of Special Agent Scott Bobeck, Army Criminal Investigation Division, same hearing, April 9, 2004

"Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcastgiven the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq."CBS News statement on its broadcast of photographs of Iraqi prisoner abuse, April 29, 2004, referring to a DOD appeal received on or near April 15, 2004

"Our military is performing brilliantly. See, the transition from torture chambers and rape rooms and mass graves and fear of authority is a tough transition. And they're doing the good work of keeping this country stabilized as a political process unfolds."Bush, remarks on "Tax Relief and the Economy," Iowa, April 15, 2004

"We're facing supporters of the outlaw cleric, remnants of Saddam's regime that are still bitter that they don't have the position to run the torture chambers and rape rooms. They will fail because they do not speak for the vast majority of Iraqis who do not want to replace one tyrant with another. They will fail because the will of our coalition is strong. They will fail because America leads a coalition full of the finest military men and women in the world."Bush, remarks on the USA Patriot Act, Pennsylvania, April 19, 2004

"We acted, and there are no longer mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms in Iraq."Bush, remarks at Victory 2004 Reception, Florida, April 23, 2004

"The pictures show Americans, men and women, in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners. There are shots of the prisoners stacked in a pyramid, one with a slur written on his skin in English. In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each other. And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing, or giving the camera a thumbs-up."Dan Rather, 60 Minutes II, April 28, 2004

"A year ago, I did give the speech from the carrier, saying that we had achieved an important objective, that we'd accomplished a mission, which was the removal of Saddam Hussein. And as a result, there are no longer torture chambers or rape rooms or mass graves in Iraq."Bush, remarks in the Rose Garden, April 30, 2004

"There are those who seek to derail the transition to democracy because they want to return to the days of mass graves and torture chambers and rape rooms. But that's not going to happen."McClellan, White House press briefing, April 30, 2004

"A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba listed some of the wrongdoing: 'Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; pouring cold water on naked detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.' "Seymour M. Hersh, "Torture at Abu Ghraib," The New Yorker, posted April 30, 2004

"Because we acted, torture rooms are closed, rape rooms no longer exist, mass graves are no longer a possibility in Iraq."Bush, remarks at "Ask President Bush" event, Michigan, May 3, 2004

"I'm not a lawyer. My impression is that what has been charged thus far is abuse, which I believe technically is different from torture. I don't know if it is correct to say what you just said, that torture has taken place, or that there's been a conviction for torture. And therefore I'm not going to address the torture word."Rumsfeld, Defense Department Operational Update Briefing, May 4, 2004

"It's very important for people, your listeners, to understand in our country that when an issue is brought to our attention on this magnitude, we actand we act in a way where leaders are willing to discuss it with the media. And we act in a way where, you know, our Congress asks pointed questions to the leadership. Iraq was a unique situation because Saddam Hussein had constantly defied the world and had threatened his neighbors, had used weapons of mass destruction, had terrorist ties, had torture chambers"Bush, interview with Al Arabiya Television, May 5, 2004

William Saletan is Slate's chief political correspondent and author of Bearing Right: How Conservatives Won the Abortion War.

Should Blacks thank America for ending Slavery?

I want to take the opposite position from those who think that America should apologize to Black people for slavery. Lets look at reality here.

America wasn't the ones who started enslaving blacks. They usually bought black slaves from other blacks in Africa where slavery still exists.

The decendents of the slaves in America are generally far better off that the decendants of those who were not brought to America. Blacks in America should be thankful for their own personal sake that their ancestors were brought over here.

America fought a civil war to free the slaves and blacks all over the world enjoy far greater freedom today because of the white people who fought and died to set them free. Blacks in Africa are more free today because of the civil war. Most of black oppression in Africa today are oppressed and slaughtered by other black people.

If we go back enough generations - we all come from Africa. All our ancestors were once black from Africa. So we are all African Americans.

I will agree that there were attrocities committed by people with light skin in America against people with dark skin in America. However - 100% of my family emigrated from Europe after the Civil War and I think it's racist for people to say that I have a debt to people of color just because I'm visibly white. None of MY ancestors enslaved black people.

Most of American blacks are of mixed heritage and are the decendants of both the oppressors and the oppressed. The number of people in America who are 100% non-white is nearly zero.

I think it's time for black people to stop complaining about the past and start looking to the future - to take responsibility for your own lives and to make the choice to thrive instead of complain. There comes a point where you have to stand up and make the best of your situation and build a future for yourself and your people - or join the civilized world and identify yourself as a fellow human and not by the frequencies of light that are reflected off the surface of your skin.

I say - get over it - focus on the future - and make something of yourself that way that the Asians have. We are trying to give you a hand up - but you have to lift up your own asses and help. I am not racist when I say - I don't owe black people anything because I'm white. I didn't enslave anyone - and if slavery existed today I would be out on the front lines fighting it. But this reparations bullshit is racist.

Lets look at some other facts - more blacks have been slaves to other blacks than they have been to white people.

More blacks today are still slaves to other black people than they are to white people.

More black people are slaughtered by other black people than they are by white people.

So - it looks to me like if reparations are owed - that blacks are more in debt to blacks than whites.

So - I'm just not buying this classification thing that we judge people by the frequencies of light reflected off the surface of their skin. To me we are all one people and we are all humans regardless of race, sex, or lines drawn on a map and we are all working together for the common good of EVERYONE.

Are Liberals more Racist that Conservatives?

I actually think so - it didn't used to be that way but many of those on the left are openly racist against whites. Here's the response I got on the Democratic Underground for refuting the silly notion that white people owe black people for slavery. It's the kind of thing that makes you want to join the GOP - until you find out what the GOP is about.

Well - I've been thrown off of the Democratic Underground twice and thrown off of Free Republic twice. It's just a matter of who controls the site. And - I do that too - sometimes after enough moron posts I start nuking access. But - DU is very racist against white people and if you aren't willing to give lip service to the concept that white people are evil - you don't get to play there.

Oh well - I used to don'te money to them - but they haven't got a dime since they banned me the first time. But - neither the right wing or the left wing controls me. I say what I want - and when I want. So the Democratic Underground can go fuck themselves!

Welcome to Liberal rage!

----------------------------

ibegurpard (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. oh boy

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boilerbabe (837 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
53. You still have Howard Dean on your thingy too!

And keep the liberal flame going, hunny!! Have you been on the new Dem organization site? I have been working waaay too much overtime and have not had a chance to check it out, unfortunately....Still a Deanie,I think he got SUCH a raw deal...
XXXOOO
The Boilerbabe

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pbl (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
2. I'm sorry, but I couldn't even finish reading your post

It made me so angry that I don't know what to say except, I hope you are not serious.

As a black American, I don't know whether to scream or cry after reading the part of your post that I could get through. I really hope you're not serious.

I'm not a Democrat but I play one on DU

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Tomee450 (134 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I'm with you.

I read the first few lines and could go no further. Unfortunately, I believe there are many who are like this person.

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boilerbabe (837 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
55. My Question is why are they posting on DU??

SHouldn't they be on the Freeper website??

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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #55
72. I find it appalling, but we DO offer the opportunity to air viewpoints

here. Some of them are bound to be distasteful. Censoring "unpleasant" posts wouldn't serve us.

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boilerbabe (837 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
50. I'm white, and it really bugs me, too

When I was misguided and working on the Reagan campaign oh so many years ago, they tried to pull the "color blind" thingy on me. I pretty much lost it at that point, along with the other social platforms i found that I disagreed with. What the everlovin'byJesus is this guy thinking about anyway? They also pulled that same crap on the Equal Rights Amendment....
It's easy to say "don't worry be happy" when you are white and have a good income and all that...I happen to be white and FINALLY have a good income, but that does not make me forget the people and places and situations I have lived with and have seen...am pretty much foaming at the mouth over this post, why are they letting people like this on DU for one thing??? WTF Ok...should be more open to diverse opinions? Gotta go throw up...talk to ya later GAGGAGAG

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datasuspect (58 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #2
73. i'm with you

this is post is some unmitigated, offensive bullshit

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
3. lift up your own asses - that's precious

Don't worry about the fact that you live in a society that has racism and racial bias ingrained in every institution. Ignore the workplace racism that exists almost everywhere. Although the govt keeps going against programs designed to try and equalize opportunities. Just pull up your bootstraps.

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. The ASIANS did it

And you don't see me complaining because Asians are more successful than white people.

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. So much to say - such little interest

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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cheezus (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. Yeah, the ASIANS did the EXACT SAME THING

they were enslaved and brought over here, lived for generations in slavery, then were freed and overcame the generations of ingrained disdain for them. That's why Asians have already thanked the US Government.

Unless specifically noted above, this post is not based on published data or scientific findings and is therefore meaningless.

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Thanks !!! Someone gets it!

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ibegurpard (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. No, someone DOES NOT

your sarcasm detector needs tuning.

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cheezus (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. Thanks! Someone who gets it!

oh well, at least this stupid thread has made me laugh.

Unless specifically noted above, this post is not based on published data or scientific findings and is therefore meaningless.

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cheezus (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. I thought I was making fun of you, actually

but I guess you're the one around here who knows the "facts", so who am I to argue?

Unless specifically noted above, this post is not based on published data or scientific findings and is therefore meaningless.

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boilerbabe (837 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
83. You Can't Make Fun of Someone That is Serious

So What else do you have up your sleeve? I took it all kindof seriously, since I have been working waaay too much, my job has kindof put me sideways, it's kind of like ruining my whole perspective. Like 84 hour work weeks. That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it!!

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Cheswick (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
65. Asian are more successful than white people?

What standards are you using?

I like Kerry better this way. = )

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DoveTurnedHawk (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
74. Don't You DARE Try To Pit Communities Against Each Other With Divisive BS

Asians Americans owe African Americans and other people of color an ENORMOUS debt of gratitude, because without the brave and heroic efforts of the Civil Rights Movement pioneers, the Immigration Reform Act of 1965 never would have become law, and there just wouldn't be very many Asians even living in this country. Without the Civil Rights Movement, the few Asians that would be here, would be suffering from even worse racism than people of color already do.

Regarding the "more successful" claim, most Asians live in urban areas, and many report (when they report at all, the poorer ones often don't) data through extended families, and quite a few have higher average education levels due to cultural emphasis. All of these factors skew household income numbers higher than the national average.

Regardless, Asian Americans are not a monolithic group. Some come from countries where the immigrants are middle-class, with a decent amount of capital and a built-in support network of immigrants who came over to America earlier. Often these subgroups do pretty well, and emphasize education for their children. Other subgroups come from crushing poverty, or are fleeing war, and do not do nearly so well.

I am Asian American, and I reject your divisive tactics.

DTH

Play the BushGame! It's a little crass, but informative and hilarious. http://www.emogame.com/bushgame.html I am a proud supporter of John Forbes Kerry for President.

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boilerbabe (837 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
69. Yeah, Right!

I am a white woman in a male-dominant workplace...fortunately this time around, I have not really encountered a lot of "hey bitch, what are you doing here" kind of stuff...I kick ass anyway...
I found where I came from...(Maine) the people distinguish others by saying they are "Black" or some other thing...I also find this here in Connecticut. I try to ease my fellow workers thru the "Fag", "Nigger" thing, I think it's more or less a stupidity thing, seeing as how we have some "Fags, and Niggers" working here anyway. Zoinks, what's a girl to do ? I am not a Fag or a NIgger, but I will be perfectly happy to be one!

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freetobegay (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. I just love waking up & loging on to DU just to see tripe!

Thanks to the Bush Administration, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Take heart

there's plenty of intelligent threads to visit.

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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Bandit (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. I've seen stupid posts before but this one takes the cake

42.7% of all statistics get made up on the spot ~

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pbl (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. May I add

Bush isn't the only who has gotta go!!!!!!!!! You are major league @sshole.

I'm not a Democrat but I play one on DU

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. You can instult me - but I dont't see anyone disputing my facts

Everything I said is 100% true.

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pbl (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. How can you prove or disprove opinion

This is your opinion and may I add that your opinion of blacks in America is wrong!

I'm not a Democrat but I play one on DU

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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
77. Agreed that seems, at least, really uninformed, but

how can an "opinion" be wrong?

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Snow (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Well, okay, I'll start with your subject line...how do you figure

some entity called "America" ended slavery? And really, that's about as far as I got.

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Political_Junkie (482 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. See post #3

no need to dispute your "facts" because you left out the very relevant truth of racism in America.

"...years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

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Snow (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Also, a little applied logic would be educational....imagine, if you will,

"facts" that are not "100% true" - perhaps 97% true facts? or 43% true facts?

I'm not just picking on semantics, here, youngster - if your thinking isn't any clearer that that, then it carries over into your argument about slavery.

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Nimble_Idea (677 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. no, the only thing 100% is your stupidity you freeping monkey
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 12:12 PM by Nimble_Idea

your facts are just a projection of your hate , emanating from the cesspool of sludge that is backed up in your orifices.

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
79. That because you didn't read my post...convenient

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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Straight Shooter (708 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. DU -- Do we have an Idiotic Question of the Century Award?

I think we have a winner.

Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. (author unknown)

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goclark (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. The Idiot's Award Goes To

the post writer.

I am African American and I would suggest that he/she start reading history books that are NOT written by the KKK.

clark2

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Jen6 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
13. Like asking "should a beaten wife

thank her husband when he stops beating her"?

Good Lord!

An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody will see it. - M.K. Gandhi

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McDiggy (52 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. not quite

No, it's like asking "Should the great-granddaughter thank her great-grandfather for beating her great-grandmother in a situation that ended in her inheriting billions of dollars due to the aforementioned relationship."

Not saying I agree with the guy, I just hate falacious discussion that is flat out silly hyperbole.

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Political_Junkie (482 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. ???

go back to freeperville, asshole.

"...years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

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gmoney (613 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. this is the kind of thinking...

that would advocate bringing back slavery to reduce unemployment.

No matter how cynical you get, it is impossible to keep up. -- Lily Tomlin

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Blue-Jay (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
18. Oh, for Pete's sake....

Are with just about done with the "Should X apologize to Y about Whatever"?

It's just guaranteed flamebait every damn time, and annoying as well.

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mandyky (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
19. There would be few black Americans

if there had never been slavery, and no matter who sold America her slaves, America has always proclaimed freedom as its primary purpose, unless you were something other than a landowning white male.

While African Americans being grateful for now being free, actually thanking anyone but the gods and / or good luck is ludicrous on its face. It took almost 100 years for this country to make sure African Americans a REAL right to vote and attend decent schools. In some places, like Florida, one can argue the vote is being taken back from Black Americans.

The DLC is _STILL_ in Dean-ial! Give 'em Hell, Howard!

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. But America didn't invent slavery

Slavery was common all over the world. It was common in the middle east - Africa - and at times in Europe. All kinds of people were enslaved. But in America we fought a war to end slavery and moved world opinion away from the evils of enslaving people. The slavery situation has vastly improved worldwide because of the efforts of people of all colors working together.

America was not the culprit - we are part of the solution. I am not proud of what white people - who are not my ancestors - in America did before I was born when they enslaved others. I am proud of what people of all colors did here in America to stop it. People who are also not my ancestors.

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CatWoman (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
51. The civil war was not fought to end slavery

that act was a by product of the war.

Lincoln never had any intention of ending slavery -- he stated so several times.

That war was about bringing the union back together.

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OaktownGrrl (293 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
59. Thanks Cat Woman.

I was going to posit same above where he stated his facts were 100% true.

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Cheswick (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #51
96. the thing breaking the Union apart was slavery

The issue of states rights was about whether new states should be allowed to be slave states. The southern states felt they would lose their political advantage if new states were not slave states.
The abolitionists in the north were gaining too much influence and breaking from the union was the only way they saw to continue their "way of life".
So the war was about states right...but it was the right to own slaves that was the disagreement.

So even if it was his intention at the begining to "end slavery". The war did transform itself to that purpose by the time he made the Emancipation Proclamation in 1863.

He may have started out as a very imperfect man of his times, but he ended up with the intention of ending slavery and he accomplished it. Sometimes history is transforming and people step up to the challenge.

I like Kerry better this way. = )

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Cheswick (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #28
71. slavery ended in many places before it ended in America

get your facts straight.

I like Kerry better this way. = )

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Coventina (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
88. Uh WRONG!!!!

America was just about the LAST place to outlaw slavery......the United States had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the nineteenth century.

Jeez laweez!!!!! Your ignorance is embarrassing!

And we tried so hard. And we looked so good. And we lived our lives in black. But something about you felt like pain. You were my sunny day rain......

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playahata1 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
103. And by the way, you are using the same argument that Bushco

uses to justify Abu Ghirab: "SADAAM WAS WORSE!" The fact that other countries started slavery does not justify America's participation in it.

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Nimble_Idea (677 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. I think it's you who has to lift your head out of your ass

so get about the business of doing that ok.

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Name removed (0 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

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McDiggy (52 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
27. .............

Well, he does have a point. Would African Americans be Americans if it were not for slavery? The question that should be asked is if these ends justify the means; is it worth the agony of your forefathers to live in the wealthiest nation in the world?

I'm not sure what's with the vitrol towards the poster. All I see are numberous knee-jerk reactions without reading or contemplating the entire post.

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Blue-Jay (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. sniff sniff...

hmm.

"vitriol" "knee-jerk"....

yeah.

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Name removed (0 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

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ibegurpard (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. would it be worth it to you

to have your freedom taken away so that your progeny could have the chance to be Bill Gates' maid?

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. out of the mouths of babes

You raise a brilliant point. Most people here on DU have probably NEVER heard arguments like the poster makes. WOW, what a wake-up call for us. Perhaps we should hit the books and do some research about this issue.

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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pbl (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. May I be the first black on this thread to say
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 12:26 PM by pbl

Thank ya massa, thank ya!

This nation wouldn't be great without the black people that it enslaved. It became wealthy at the expense of my forefathers and I don't know where people get this idea that black people owe their freedom to white people-- we fought for every single thing we ever got.

This is the whole mindset of America that has us in this mess in Iraq, that we are the only ones who can free people and life is so much worse if you don't have the American culture to guide you.

I'm not a Democrat but I play one on DU

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sadiesworld (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
44. We've been "contemplating" this simplistic, racist crap for years...

we get to "contemplate" it everytime Limbaugh and his ilk open their pieholes.

sadiesworld

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #27
47. Exactly - They wouldn't be here if not for slavery

I am NOT endorsing slavery in any way. The point is - none of the black people in America TODAY were slaves. Neither are any of the JEWS alive today slaves in Egypt. That stuff happened to OTHER PEOPLE. There are a lot of WHITE PEOPLE in America who are also the decendants of slaves. And - there are lots of people of MIXED RACE who are the decendents of people who did all kinds of things.

In fact - every single person on the planet is the decendents of both the oppressed and the oppressors. But that is all backward looking.

If anyone of any reace is going to move themselves and "their people" forward then you have to move your focus away from what happened to ancestors you never met and take some personal responsibility to make something of yourself.

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Walt Starr (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Actually, you've endorsed slavery pretty handily

after all, the sons of former slaves should be thanking their fomer overseers for the beatings, and rapings, and loss of dignity since now they're MURCANS!

There's a word for people like you, but even I won't stoop to that level of obscenity.

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #47
76. Take some personal responsibility? Kiss my lily white ass!

Next I suppose you'll argue that the ghettoization of blacks is good because it allows them to rise to their level of arrested development

BTW...WHERE is Asia is your family from?

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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Cheswick (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #47
101. you are a very young dittohead aren't you?

Don't worry there is still time for your head to detox. Finish High School take some sociology and history classes and then come back and see us.

I like Kerry better this way. = )

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. I read the entire post..and your question is based on the assumptions

he offers as though any are historically correct.

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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playahata1 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
78. Did African slaves ASK to come to the "New World?"
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 01:05 PM by playahata1

They had no choice in the matter, and even if their descendants had the option to go back to Africa, they would not take it, because they had the old ways and culture stripped from them.

You seem to imply that black people should be happy to live in America because of its alleged "superiority" to African -- and other -- cultures. That BS that you and your boy are running off at the keyboard with is not appreciated here, Jack!

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BringEmOn (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
87. Another one with no fork in the family tree?

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philosophie_en_rose (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
102. Slavery isn't the only way to immigrate.
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 01:13 PM by philosophie_en_rose

"Would African Americans be Americans if it were not for slavery?"

Um... yeah. They could have been the sons and daughters of willing immigrants.

Plus, African Americans were not given the rights of Americans until they demanded it. Regardless of slavery or segregation, African Americans don't owe a damned thing to the people that perpetuate the systems that oppress them.

And, do African Americans really live in the "wealthiest nation"? Are there as many African Americans (or "more successful" Asians) in affluent areas as there are in poverty?

We have to fight back. But we can't fight like they do. The Right's entertainment value comes from their willingness to lie and distort. Ours will have to come from being funny and attractive. And passionate. And idealistic. But also smart. And not milquetoasty. We've got to be willing to throw their lies in their face. - Al Franken

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Walt Starr (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
34. You're wrong on your second sentence

America DID start slavery, enshringing the evil institution within it's defining document, the constitution.

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YIMA (75 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. I thought Romans also had black slaves.......

.....as did the Greeks. Of course, both of these cultures enslaved many of the people they conquered.

OUT DA BUSHES!!!!

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MercutioATC (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
80. I'm afraid you're mistaken. Slavery predates America by quite a bit.

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Tatiana (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
38. Your thinking is typical of prejudiced and uninformed Americans.

African-Americans are denied the opportunity to even obtain an interview for mid to high level jobs because of "ethnic-sounding" names.

Discrimination and racism still exist, as your own post proves. We are only decades removed from segregation. Children who attend public schools with predominantely African-American populations receive an inferior education to children attending schools where the majority is caucasian.

Racial profiling by the police, the number of African-American males incarcerated (while "white collar" crimes go largely unprosecuted, or result in little to no jail time for those convicted), I could go on and on...

Level the playing field. Let's be fair and give everyone an equal opportunity, then we can talk about moving on and looking towards the future. As it stands now, the future for many minorities is not as bright as it may be for caucasian people.

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DoctorMyEyes (684 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
41. I thought you were channeling Dinesh D'Souza

or attempting some kind of satire - but you're serious aren't you?

Maybe you should go hang out with the freepers or join the American Enterprise Institute - they seem more in tune with your logic.

Why I thought you were *doing" D'Souza:

from "The End of Racism":

"If America as a nation owes blacks as a group reparations for slavery, what do blacks as a group owe America for the abolition of slavery?"

I gave you too much credit.

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
42. What I first began to post started with F and ended with YOU

But the racism inherent in your post is beyond disgusting...allow me to pick it apart...oh and welcome back to DU BTW

America wasn't the ones who started enslaving blacks. They usually bought black slaves from other blacks in Africa where slavery still exists.

That is known as equivocating. That is tantamount to saying that since Hitler actually brought to light the Ukraines murdered by Stalin and since Hitler only exterminated 6 million and Stalin murdered million more that we should actually pause and give thanks to Hitler for ending atrocities in the Ukraine.

The decendents of the slaves in America are generally far better off that the decendants of those who were not brought to America. Blacks in America should be thankful for their own personal sake that their ancestors were brought over here.

Again that is a triangulating argument....many many MORE people were taken into slavery due to the MARKET for it CREATED by the white men that came to take slaves...

America fought a civil war to free the slaves and blacks all over the world enjoy far greater freedom today because of the white people who fought and died to set them free. Blacks in Africa are more free today because of the civil war. Most of black oppression in Africa today are oppressed and slaughtered by other black people.

And that would be a good argument but for the fact that it oversimplifies the causes of the civil war including secession.

BTW most black oppression in Africa today is being spurred on in many regions due to WHITE economic interests such as the race for COLTAN to keep our cell phones and computers humming along...again oversimplification .....it's as though you are claiming that since African wars are black on black versus western wars which are WHITES on every other color, our causes are so much more pure.

If we go back enough generations - we all come from Africa. All our ancestors were once black from Africa. So we are all African Americans.

Not even historically true since some of the earliest human forms are traced to Asia

I will agree that there were attrocities committed by people with light skin in America against people with dark skin in America. However - 100% of my family emigrated from Europe after the Civil War and I think it's racist for people to say that I have a debt to people of color just because I'm visibly white. None of MY ancestors enslaved black people.

BULL FUCKING SHIT...the oppression of African Americans and the economic benefits to white Americans did NOT end with the civil war...so that argument is MOOT.

Most of American blacks are of mixed heritage and are the decendants of both the oppressors and the oppressed. The number of people in America who are 100% non-white is nearly zero.

Complete non-sequitur

I think it's time for black people to stop complaining about the past and start looking to the future - to take responsibility for your own lives and to make the choice to thrive instead of complain. There comes a point where you have to stand up and make the best of your situation and build a future for yourself and your people - or join the civilized world and identify yourself as a fellow human and not by the frequencies of light that are reflected off the surface of your skin.

I say - get over it - focus on the future - and make something of yourself that way that the Asians have. We are trying to give you a hand up - but you have to lift up your own asses and help.

Wow if I sit here and pick apart all the stereotypes you invoke with this sentence...of laziness, ecoexting something for nothing, pretending that blacks have brought all oppression to themselves...I might lunge through the computer.

Welcome back Jumper..glad to see nothng's changed

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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Misunderestimator (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #42
75. For all you freeps out there that can read ....

Refer yourselves to the post above. I wish I'd written it, but I'm so fuming irritated that all I can say is F*CK YOU bushgottago_gotago.

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camero (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
45. maybe they should thank the rich>major sarcasm

since the rich are the ones that bought and sold the slaves eh? What a stupid post.

``We have now sunk to a depth at which restatement of the obvious is the first duty of intelligent men.''-George Orwell

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DBoon (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
46. Should White people thank Black people

for all the underpaid labor the Black people's ancestors performed as slaves?

And maybe show their gratitude for all the hard work done by slaves by presenting their heirs with a nice check for wages owed (including overtime pay)?

Bob Dylan wrote propaganda songs

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #46
61. hmmm - I would say - YES

Because those people are still here and still alive today. That is a real issue that is current. We do need to end anything that makes black people disadvantaged today.

Like I said - focus on the future - not the past.

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DBoon (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #61
85. And property legally earned belongs to one's heirs

And we know slavery is (and should have been) illegal

And we know labor should be fairly compensated, and have laws to ensure this.

Bob Dylan wrote propaganda songs

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CatWoman (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
48. As a black person, I'd like to speak on behalf of other blacks, and say

FUCK YOU.

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. Cat, can you be more direct perhaps?

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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CatWoman (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. LOL

In the future, I'll try to tone it down.

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burythehatchet (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #63
84. not on my account i hope

He who knows he knows, doesn't know. He who knows he doesn't know, knows. -Joseph Campbell

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Political_Junkie (482 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. Woohoo! You go, girl!

"...years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

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bushgottago (98 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
54. Well - at least it's not about REAGAN!

For those of you who are tired of the never ending funeral.

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
60. It was what Reagan stood for and cut and paste from David

Horowitz....his ten arguments against reparations...up yours

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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Misunderestimator (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
57. It's time for black people to stop complaining...

And it's time for you to grow a brain. What absolute, sophomoric, idiotic and bigoted logic. Thanks for soiling the board.

I'd say more but I've already read the measured and sensible responses to your crap, which I think I can rightly assume you will neither read nor comprehend.

I am so very sure that YOU "are trying to give... a hand up"... where? the ass?

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Walt Starr (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
58. Folks, this trolling flamfest thread is a DISTRACTION

from the REAL story this morning:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

Proof of torture in the pictures and that dogs were used in that torture, not to frighten, but to INJURE!

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Political_Junkie (482 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #58
86. Thanks, Walt,

I hadn't see that.

"...years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

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Cheswick (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
62. Should men thank women for giving birth all these centuries

so that they could prosper and rule the world?...You know, enslavement by Uterus!

oops, excuse my interupting your borderline racist rant.

make something of yourself that way that the Asians have. We are trying to give you a hand up - but you have to lift up your own asses and help.

ummm yikes

I like Kerry better this way. = )

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playahata1 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #62
95. Cheswick -- that is NOT borderline racist,

that is ALL-THE-WAY racist, period! Let's not beat around the bush here.

Note to Jerk-off of the Year: You say that you are not white. What makes you think that white Americans fully accept you -- if you are indeed what you claim to be?

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Walt Starr (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
66. I'd consider this thread a successful ultimate something or other

because a poster with less than 100 posts has just about single handedly alienated every last African American DUer from this site.

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. Correction

Less than 100 posts in this incarnation

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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matcom (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
68. "get over it"???? are you FUCKING INSANE??

i would NEVER EVER FUCKING EVER "get over it" if it were MY history.

"get over it?"

i just can't IMAGINE why this thread was started in the first place

-"Your Government Failed You...." - Richard Clarke

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playahata1 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
70. Who in hell are you to tell black people to "get over it"?

Racism and slavery are NOT dead in this country. You stand a better chance of being hired, of not being followed around in a store, of becoming CEO of a major corporation -- hell, President of the United States -- than I do.

I won't further dignify your bullshit by going on. Your ignorance is beyond words, and contempt.

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supernova (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
81. Should Bushgottago be sold into slavery?
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 12:52 PM by supernova

It seems fitting.

Visit the DU North Carolina Forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...
Proud President of the DU Johnny Depp Fan Club!
Confidential to UGRR:

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nothingshocksmeanymore (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #81
93. I think I just found a viable use for Abu Graib

"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Mafia." Kurt Vonnegut

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supernova (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #93
97. Well, there you go

keep a thing long enough and eventually you find a use for it.

Visit the DU North Carolina Forum: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...
Proud President of the DU Johnny Depp Fan Club!
Confidential to UGRR:

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datasuspect (58 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #81
94. i got a book of s&h green stamps

toward the purchase

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Political_Junkie (482 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #81
100. hmmm...

Got me thinking, Supernova.

"...years ago, I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; while there is a criminal element, I am of it; while there is a soul in prison, I am not free." Eugene V. Debs

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slinkerwink (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:51 PM
Response to Original message
82. this is the most moronic post I've ever seen, and you, sir, are a racist!

Forever a Howard Dean Democrat......

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bandera (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
89. The sheer ignorance of this post is appalling.

It's more than obvious that you have little knowledge of what the American institition of slavery, and just as importantly, it's aftermath entailed. I would advise you to read a bit of that history before endulging in such remarks as:

"They usually bought black slaves from other blacks in Africa where slavery still exists."

"America fought a civil war to free the slaves and blacks all over the world enjoy far greater freedom today because of the white people who fought and died to set them free. Blacks in Africa are more free today because of the civil war. Most of black oppression in Africa today are oppressed and slaughtered by other black people."

"I say - get over it - focus on the future - and make something of yourself that way that the Asians have. We are trying to give you a hand up - but you have to lift up your own asses and help."

As for "not being responsible" because "my ancestors" enslaved no one.

I would think that most of us were born after Japanese Americans were sent to concentration camps by our government during WWII. Yet most of us were quite willing to see apolgies and reparations made to those victims of American injustice.

Your rationalizations and excuses sound an awful lot like the drivel I've heard Limbaugh and his ilk spew.

"Mejor morir a pie que vivir en rodillas." - Dolores Iburruri - Madrid 1936

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newsguyatl (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
90. and i say your rationale

is idiotic at best.

pathetic.

"Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve." George Bernard Shaw

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FleshCartoon (539 posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
91. This argument reminds me of when someone I know...

...who used to beat their wife said that she had it coming because she provoked him.

I suppose that when he allowed her to finally divorce him and didn't go gunning for her like we all expected him to, she should have sent him a thank you card for sparing her life.

Give me a break. This is just bullshit!

Something Shakespeare never said was, "You've got to be kidding!"

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philosophie_en_rose (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
92. Should White People Demand Anything About Slavery?
Edited on Sat Jun-12-04 01:11 PM by philosophie_en_rose

Even if you didn't personally kidnap Africans and force them to work on cotton fields, you benefit from the privilege created by that system.

No one can force you to empathize with an experience you obviously think is easy to ignore. That's a personal failing you'll just have to live with for the rest of your life. However, even should everyone "get over it" the political, economic, and cultural effects of slavery would still exist.

"Blacks should be grateful..." For what? For free housing and food back in the day... of slavery. Being raped, enslaved, and degraded for more that four hundred years is sure something to be grateful about.

As for your ignorant comments on Africa, I think you need to learn a little more about colonialism in Africa if you think anyone there should be grateful for the interference of caucasians.

This is probably just a flamebait thread, but it's nice to see how morans can bring us together.

We have to fight back. But we can't fight like they do. The Right's entertainment value comes from their willingness to lie and distort. Ours will have to come from being funny and attractive. And passionate. And idealistic. But also smart. And not milquetoasty. We've got to be willing to throw their lies in their face. - Al Franken

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Mikimouse (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
98. I had to read this entire thread to realize that it was NOT...

written by the likes of Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, or Sean Hannity, and I am still horrified. The most germane point(among thousands that you choose to ignore) that you clearly do not understand is this: (Maestro, please a little organ music appropriate for the occasion, something rousing, like the Battle Hymn of the Republic, playing in the background) The great white society FREED the slaves, hooray, hooray, hooray! BUT FOR WHAT! TO STARVE TO DEATH BECAUSE THEY THEN HAD NO ACCESS TO THE RESOURCES NECESSARY TO SUSTAIN LIFE!!!!!!!!!! OH yeah, we shoud be SO proud. By the way, my ancestors didn't own slaves either, but unless you have missed the entire point, which I suspect you have, we are all supposed to be in this deal TOGETHER. NO, I'm not shitting you, REALLY!

The true greatness of a nation is inversely proportional to the number of times it declares itself so (Mikimouse)

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number6 (1000+ posts) Sat Jun-12-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
99. Black People Should Thank

all those white people who organized resistance
to slavery in the south ...

"I think it's time for black people to stop complaining about the past and start looking to the future - to take responsibility for your own lives and to make the choice to thrive instead of complain."

and who the hell said they should not ?

Syung Mung Moon Crowned King in US Senate Building

Well - apparently America really is a Christian Nation - but it's the Moonies who have officially been chosen by the US Government to be the official state religion. On March 23rd 2004 Moon was officially crowned messiah by Congress in the Senate Dirksen Office Building.

What's scary is - why don't you see this in the news media? Maybe this is why it feels like America is one big cult - because it is! America is being run by the Moonies and they own a lot of Americas press uncluding United Press International (UPI) and The Washington Times. When the government crowns Sun Myung Moon king, (Moon spokesman explains moon corination cerimony - windows media format) recognizes Moon as messiah, and supports his campaign to replace the Cross with the Crown - don't you think that Christians would want to know that?

If this isn't a reason to support the separation of church and state I don't know what is. There are those out there who believe that America is a Christian nation. Well - apparently from this they are right. But the dominate flavor of Christianity is the Moonies. It's the Unification Church that is the brand of Christianity that is pulling the governments strings.

You see - the idea of a Christian Nation is very appealing to Christians until the Moonies get control. But when the Moonies get it - I suppose the Christians would want some sort of separation of the State and Denominations. Would it be any different if the Baptists were in control? Or if the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or Seventh Day Adventists, or the Church of Scientology was in control? After all - from the perspective of the only true religion, The Church of Reality all these Christian denominations are just as crazy as the Moonies. Especially if they had the kind of power that the Moonies have.

I challenge all Christians to look into this and find out how much influence the Moonies have in your church and in your denomination. If you only knew it would shock the hell out of you. Now that the government wants you to Take Down the Cross and put up the Crown - how do you feel about the separation of church and state now?

Moon Over Washington

Why are some of the capital’s most influential power players hanging out with a bizarre Korean billionaire who claims to be the Messiah?

by John Gorenfeld, Contributor
6.09.04

Should Americans be concerned that on March 23rd a bipartisan group of Congressmen attended a coronation at which a billionaire, pro-theocracy newspaper owner was declared to be the Messiah – with royal robes, a crown, the works? Or that this imperial ceremony took place not in a makeshift basement church or a backwoods campsite, but in a Senate office building?

The Washington Post didn't think so. For a moment on April 4, a quote from the keynote speech was in the Web version of its "Reliable Sources" column. The speaker: Sun Myung Moon, 84, an ex-convict whose political activities were at the center of the 1976-8 Koreagate influence-peddling probe. That's when an investigation by Congress warned that Moon, after having befriended Richard Nixon in his darkest hour, was surrounding himself with other politicians to overcome his reputation: as the leader of the cult-like Unification Church, which recruited unwary college students, filled Madison Square Garden with couples in white robes, wed them in bulk and demanded obedience.

That was before he launched the Washington Times – "in response to Heaven’s direction," as he would later say – and a 20-year quest to make his enemies bow to him. He has also claimed, in newspaper ads taken out by the Unification Church, that Jesus, Confucius, and the Buddha have endorsed him. Muhammad, according to the 2002 ad, led the council in three cries of "mansei," or victory. And every dead U.S. president was there, too – because Moon's gospel is inseparable from visions of true-blue American power.

Now, this March, Moon was telling guests at the Dirksen Senate Office Building that Hitler and Stalin, having cleaned up their acts, had, in a rare public statement from beyond the grave, called him "none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent."

But not long after it appeared on the Post's web site, the paper erased the quote. Columnist Richard Leiby told me via e-mail that it shouldn't have gone out in the first place. The paper replaced it with breaking news about "Celebrity Jeopardy!" with Tim Russert.

The Return of the King

So no one covered this American coronation, except Moon's own Times, which skipped the Messiah part. It wasn't in other newspapers, which only wink at the influence of Moon's far-right movement in Washington, when they cover it at all.

In fact, the only place you could read about the new king, unless you bookmarked Moon's Korean-language website, was in the blog world. There, dozens of the most CSPAN2-hardened cynics reacted to the screenshots with a resounding "WTF," the sound of dismay and confusion at a scene that news coverage hadn't prepared them for. The images might as well have come from Star Trek's Mirror Universe.

First, we're shown a rabbi blowing a ram's horn. Most Jews would hold off on this until the High Holy Days, but it probably counts if the Moshiach shows up in a federal office building at taxpayer expense. Then we see the man of the hour, Moon, chilling at a table at the Dirksen in a tuxedo, soaking all this up. He claps. He's having a ball.

Cut to the ritual. Eyes downcast, a man identified as Congressman Danny K. Davis (D-Ill.) is bringing a crown, atop a velvety purple cushion, to a figure who stands waiting austerely with his wife. Now Moon is wearing robes that Louis XIV would have appreciated. All of this has quickly been spliced into a promo reel by Moon's movement, which implies to its followers that the U.S. Congress itself has crowned the Washington Times owner.

But Section 9 of the Constitution forbids giving out titles of nobility, setting a certain tone that might have made the Congressional hosts shy about celebrating the coronation on their websites. They included conservatives, the traditional fans of Moon's newspaper: Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), Rep. Curt Weldon (R-PA.), Rep. Chris Cannon (R-Utah), Rep. Roscoe Bartlett (R-Md.) and Republican strategy god Charlie Black, whose PR firm represents Ahmed Chalabi’s Iraqi National Congress. But there were also liberal House Democrats like Sanford Bishop (D-Ga.) and Davis. Rep. Harold Ford (D-Tenn.) later told the Memphis Flyer that he'd been erroneously listed on the program, but had never heard of the event, which was sponsored by the Washington Times Foundation.

Rep. Curt Weldon's office tenaciously denied that the Congressman was there, before being provided by The Gadflyer with a photo depicting Weldon at the event, found on Moon's website. "Apparently he was there, but we really had nothing to do with it," press secretary Angela Sowa finally conceded. "I don't think it's quite accurate that the Washington Times said that we hosted the event. We may have been a Congressional co-host, but we have nothing to do with the agenda, the organization, the scheduling, and our role would be limited explicitly to the attendance of the Congressman."

The spokeswoman for one senator, who asked that her boss not be named, said politicians weren't told the awards program was going to be a Moon event. The senator went, she said, because the Ambassadors promised to hand out awards to people from his home state, people who were genuinely accomplished. When the ceremony morphed into a platform for Moon, she said, people were disconcerted.

"I think there was a mass exodus," she said. "They get all these senators on the floor, and this freak is there."

A new world order

The last time someone declared himself Emperor of the United States, it was the Gold Rush's Joshua Norton, a sort of failed dot-commer of the 1850s. But he was broke, whereas a random sampling of Moon's properties might include a healthy chunk of the U.S. fishing industry, the graphic tablet company Wacom, and swaths of real estate on an epic scale. The money-losing Times is paid for by the $1 billion he's sunk into it, along with untold funding for conservative policy foundations like the American Family Coalition.

George Soros has recently gotten lots of coverage as a supposedly eccentric billionaire influencing U.S. politics. But Soros is no Moon. In Moon's speeches, a "peace kingdom" is envisioned, in which homosexuals – whom he calls "dung-eating dogs" – would be a thing of the past. He said in January: "Gays will be eliminated, the three Israels will unite. If not, then they will be burned. We do not know what kind of world God will bring, but this is what happens. It will be greater than the communist purge but at God's orders."

And ignoring every mainline Christian denomination's rejection of the idea of Jewish collective guilt, Moon's latest world tour calls on rabbis to repent for betraying Christ, the Jerusalem Post reported last week. Speaking in Arlington, VA in 2003, Moon said Hitler killed six million Jews as a penalty for this rejection. And he's frank about calling for democracy and the U.S. Constitution to be replaced by religious government that he calls "Godism," calling the church-state separation the work of Satan. "The church and the state must become one as Cain and Abel," he said in the same sermon.

Towards this end, Moon's "Ambassadors for Peace" have been promoting his goal of a "Religious United Nations" organized around God, not countries. In the June 19, 2003 Congressional Record, Rep. Davis joins Rep. Weldon in thanking Moon and the Ambassadors for "promoting the vision of world peace." He praises their plan to "support the leaders of the United Nations" through interfaith dialogue. Much of the dialogue has consisted of getting Moon's retinue of rabbis, ministers and Muslim clerics to hug each other, and be photographed handing out awards to politicians. The Ambassadors have addressed the United Nations and the British House of Lords. They have also honored at least one neo-Nazi, William Baker, former chair of the Holocaust-denying Populist Party.

And far from the free lunches that Emperor Norton received in San Francisco, Moon's groups have taken home grant money from the Bush Administration, which has given his anti-sex missionaries $475,000 in Abstinence-Only dollars to bring Moon's crusade against "free sex" to both black New Jersey high-schoolers and native Africans. The Centers for Disease Control briefly announced that another Moon foundation was the only group qualified to receive another, no-bid grant for HIV education in Africa. Only after a competitor raised objections did the CDC cancel the grant program entirely. Meanwhile, one of Moon's top political movers, David Caprara, has been appointed by George W. Bush to head AmeriCorps VISTA; and another former church VIP, Josette Shiner, was given a senior trade position.

Friends in high places

In the early stages of the Reagan Revolution that embraced the Washington Times and Moon's anti-Communist movement, it was embarrassing to be caught at a Moon event. Until George H.W. Bush appeared with Moon in 1996, thanking him for a newspaper that "brings sanity to Washington," famous guests often spoke at front groups that concealed ties to the Unification Church. Bill Cosby was horrified to discover he'd agreed to speak at one. The reputation of future "Left Behind" author Tim LaHaye suffered after his wife accidentally gave Mother Jones a recording of him dictating a fond letter to Moon's lieutenant Bo Hi Pak, plotting to replace Vice-President Bush with Jerry Falwell on the 1988 ticket. To many Christians, Moon was offensive, preaching that Jesus failed and that he would clean up the mess.

But now that he's forged unbreakable ties with conservative Christians, Moon has moved on to African-American ministers, and, through them, allies in the Democratic Party. This has been below the radar of the press, but not for lack of outlandishness. Moon celebrated Easter Sunday, 2003 by launching a coast to coast series of "tear down the cross/Who is Rev. Moon?" events, targeting pastors in poor neighborhoods. From the Bronx to L.A., Moon's people were convincing pastors to pull the crosses off their walls and replace them with his Family Federation flag. An old hymn was invoked: "I'll trade the old cross for a crown."

To Congressmen attending earlier stops in this roadshow, all this mysticism may have seemed too murky and exotic to understand. But the storyline is simple enough, if you take a step back.

Moon's newest followers were invited to tear down the traditional symbol of Christianity, told they could swap it for a crown. But unlike the crown in the hymn, it wasn't for them. It was the one that Congressmen gave, March 23 at the Dirksen Senate Office Building, to a wealthy right-wing newspaper owner, one described by Time magazine in 1976 as "megalomaniacal," not much of an exaggeration for someone who claims to be the Second Coming. Unless of course he actually is.

The next day, according to a speech posted to a Moon mailing list and Usenet by a Unification church webmaster, Damian Anderson, Moon said he was leaving the country. "True Father spent 34 years here in America to guide this country in the right way," he told followers. "Yesterday was the turning point." But you can't buy Moon's high opinion of your country so easily (he's called the U.S. "Satan's harvest").

America, he said, was on the road to its doom. Why? "Homo marriage."

Here's a link that will shoch the fuck out of you - especially if you are a Christian. Democrat, Republican push Moon's dreams on the floor of Congress

Mr. DAVIS of Illinois. Mr. Speaker, I rise today to express my commitment to world peace and to stress the importance of establishing dialogue and understanding among all people. It is in recognition of this need that on Tuesday, June 24, at 6:30 p.m. in the Rayburn Room B338-340, the American Leadership Initiative will hold a special awards ceremony to honor great Americans from all 50 States who have demonstrated a commitment to peace. Many of my colleagues will join me and the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Weldon), co-chair, in giving tribute to some of the outstanding Americans from our districts. Members of the clergy, legislators, educators, business and community leaders will be among those honored with the ``Ambassadors for Peace Award-Excellence in Leadership.'' These committed citizens have been working to renew and strengthen our families and marriages, restore our communities, and rebuild our Nation and indeed our world. We are grateful to the founders of Ambassadors for Peace, the Reverend and Mrs. Sun Myung [Moon], for promoting the vision of world peace, and we commend them for their work.

These Ambassadors for Peace have become increasingly effective and relevant in their communities since the tragedy of 9-11. They have been working together to promote understanding among all faiths, particularly with Muslim, Jewish, and Christian leaders. With the realization that many of the tensions currently facing the world cannot be addressed without consideration of the religious implications involved, the Ambassadors for Peace have formed an American Interreligious Council. This council seeks to support and advise our Nation's leaders concerning the issues and challenges of seeking lasting peace. The American Interreligious Council is also part of the effort to create an international council of religious leaders. The members of this council will support the leaders of the United Nations as they work to resolve conflicts throughout the world. This body will provide a direct link between international leaders and the various religious peoples in their constituencies.

Republicans have a plan to take power if they lose the elections

If there comes a point where the Republican Party realizes that they can not win in the election - they will try to take America by force. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that there is a coup in the works as a backup plan should Republicans lose the election.

If the Republicans lose - they will not just walk away and hand over power. They will make a move to take America by force. And - we have to figure it out first and stop it before they succeed.

We must be prepared to defent America against a Reoublican coup. Right now the best way to do that is to try to out think them - to figure out the plan and expost it before they can use it. I suspect that they are still figuring it out and that they are putting the pieces in place now. And - these people are sloppy.

If we watch carefully enough we should be able to figure it out in time. But we have to start looking now - looking hard - and making the right moves. If anyone doubts that the Republicans are ruthless enough to do this - just look at what they've done so far. It's pretty obvious to be the direction they are heading based on what they have done already.

Bush and his ilk are a threat to the entire civilized world and is a greater threat that bin Laden or any other terrorist. He attacks countries without provocation. He wanted to use nuclear weapons in Iraq. He authorized the use of torture and under his command children were raped in Abu Griab prison in front of their parents. (Video of that coming soon)

There is nothing that Bush and the GOP won't do to hold onto power. And - I don't know what to do except sound the alert and hope that the alert spreads to the point where when the time comes and the shit goes down that we will be ready for it.

Like I said - if this sounds tin foil hat to you - I say - lok at what they have done so far and you tell me - is this not a serious possibility that is at least worthy of discussion and being alert? Bush puts out fake terror alerts all the time and there's not doubt at all that this alert is a lot more real than his alerts are.

So - I say to you - join me in my paranoid delusion so that maybe America will wake up from the nightmare that we call reality and restore the dignaty of America as the leader in peace and freedom. I say it's time for America to get off the "war footing" and get on a "peace footing". But that's not going to happen until we get rid of our unelected dictator and take the firture of our planet from armegeddon and towards a better future where we move in a positive direction.

Voice over IP Telephone Calls (VoIP)

I got a cool new technology toy. It's a new way to make telephone calls without having a telephone line. You use the Internet to make phone calls. It's called Voice over IP (VoIP) and I just got one and I love it. I can now make phone calls over my cable modem and get rid of my phone line. I'm only paying $30/month for telephone with unlimited long distance in the US and Canada and International calling rates are about 4 cents a minute. It eliminates my real phone which was costing me $55 a month with unlimited US long distance and less features. So I have a better phone and saving money.

The plan I got was from a company called Vonage. After a lot of research it looks like they have the best deal. Here's how it works. They send you this unit that is the Internet to telephone adapter. You plug it into your DSL or Cable Modem and then plug your phone into it. On my home network it lives happily behind my firewall router.

The install was simple. I plugged it in and it worked. There was absolutely nothing to configure. It powered up and the first thing it did was phone home and download an upgrade and configured itself. That takes about 5 minutes. It has one green blinky light on it and when it stops blinking - it's ready to work. I plugged my phone in and made a call.

The voice quality was BETTER than a real phone. It's all digital which is why the quality is higher. And - it comes with a lot of features that real phone lines don't have. For example - it comes with voice mail that can email you the voice mail message as an attached WAV file. You can also add extra "virtual numbers" in any area code you want for $5/month per number. So - if you have a friend in another state you can have another virtual number which allows your friends in that area to call you by calling a local number.

One very cool feature is that if I go on a trip I can take the phone with me and plug it into the Internet whereever I go. So if I went to Australia I can plug it in and get my calls as if I were home. With an IP phone location doesn't matter. The phone is where the adapter box is.

For those who want privacy - this phone isn't easilly tapable like line phones are. The box created a vpn back to the home network and encrypts the data. The perfect phone for the paranoid, people who support civil liberties, computer geeks, and drug dealers. I've always assumed Ashcroft is listening to me. But now he's going to have to work a little harder.

The terminal adapter supports 2 lines so for another $10/month you can get a second line to use as a fax line or make two phone callse at once from to different phones.

Another cool feature is that you can set it to automatically forward the phone line in case the network phone fails. So if my internet connection goes down incoming calls are forwarded to my cell phone. And if I want that to happen I just unplug the adapter and the forwarding instantly kicks in.

Voicemail is very cool. I get an email alert when I get a message recorded. I can set it to forward me the message as an attached WAV file - or - I can just go to the web site and listen to it. Or - I cal dial *123 from my phone and put in my passcode and listen to my voice mail. It also gives me the choice of reading me the caller ID number and the time stamp of the call.

If you have a laptop and a USB headset you can get a "software phone" that turns your laptop into a telephone with all the same calling power as the terminal adapter.

One of the reasons it's so much cheaper is that they don't load you up with all those taxes that you get on phone lines. You know how the government is - they hate people who have phones and drive cars. So - this is one of those middle class taxes that I don't have to pay anymore. (Except for my cell phone). I say - screw the government. They are already getting too much of my money.

I moved my existing phone number over to the new service. Because I was moving my number - which isn't instant - they gave me a temporary number until the move occurs. However - since I have call forwarding on the old number I forwarded the old line to the new temporary number and thus managed to get everything working instantly.

US government faked Bush news reports

From the Gaurdian

TV news reports in America that showed President George Bush getting a standing ovation from potential voters have been exposed as fake, it has emerged.

The US government admitted it paid actors to pose as journalists in video news releases sent to TV stations intending to convey support for new laws about health benefits.

Investigators are examining the film segments, in which actors pretending to be journalists praise the benefits of the new law passed last year by President Bush, to see if they could be construed as propaganda.

Two of the films are signed off by "Karen Ryan", who was an actor hired to read a script prepared by the government, according to production company Home Front Communications.

Another video, intended for Hispanic viewers, shows a government official being interviewed in Spanish by a actor posing as a reporter with the name "Alberto Garcia".

One segment shows a pharmacist telling an elderly customer the new law "helps you better afford your medications".

"It sounds like a good idea," the customer says, to which the pharmacist replies, "A very good idea."

And in some scenes President Bush is shown receiving a standing ovation from a crowd cheering him as he signed the Medicare law, which is designed to help elderly people with prescriptions.

The government also prepared scripts to be used by news anchors. "In December, President Bush signed into law the first-ever prescription drug benefit for people with Medicare," the script reads.

"Since then, there have been a lot of questions about how the law will help older Americans and people with disabilities. Reporter Karen Ryan helps sort through the details." The "reporter" then explains the benefits of the new law.

Lawyers from the investigative arm of Congress discovered the tapes as part of an investigation into federal money that was used to publicise the new law.

They will be keen to ascertain whether the government might have misled viewers by failing to reveal the source of the videos, which were broadcast in Oklahoma, Louisiana and other states.

"Video news releases" of this sort have been used in the US since the 1980s, but the way they blur the lines between news and advertising troubles many media experts and campaigners.

The government defended the videos, which Democrats described as "disturbing". "The use of video news releases is a common, routine practice in government and the private sector," a health department spokesman told the New York Times.

VNRs are also used in Europe but a furore surrounding a Greenpeace video package about its campaign to prevent the dumping of Shell's Brent Spar oil platform sent to British broadcasters some years ago led to new rules clamping down on their use.

Greenpeace's sophisticated media offensive - including the provision of emotive film footage of its occupation of the platform - resulted in one-dimensional coverage by BBC and ITN, news chiefs admitted at the time.

Guidelines were subsequently drawn up to label video news releases as such - a category which the regular Osama bin Laden videos now fall.

Rush Limbaugh to Divorce - Again!

I remember during the Monica Lewinshy affair how the right wingers salivated over the impending demise of the clinton family. "Surely she will divorce him" they drooled waiting for the impending announcement that never came. That's because Clinton's marriage was much more solid than his Republican detractors like Rush Limbaugh.

Generally I don't revel in the misfortune of others - but I have a rule which is what I call the "hypocracy exception" - which in this case means that when Rush cheers at the downfall of others - it's ok to cheer at his downfall. This is so that an important point is made to warn other of the dark side of self richeousness and moral masturbation.

Some day it will be my turn but for now - let them eat crow!

---------------------------------

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - Conservative radio commentator Rush Limbaugh announced Friday that he and his wife, Marta, were divorcing.

The Limbaughs "mutually decided to end their marriage of 10 years" and have "separated pending an amicable resolution," according to a statement released by Limbaugh's publicist.

The couple shared a $24 million oceanfront mansion in nearby Palm Beach, from where Limbaugh often broadcast his daily three-hour show.

Spokesman Tony Knight said the matter was personal and declined further comment.

It was the third marriage for both Limbaugh, 53, and his 44-year-old wife, who were wed May 27, 1994 at the Virginia home of U.S. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Thomas officiated the ceremony.

Reagan Funeral GOP FuckFest Nearly Over

Of course the media is grateful to Reagan because he's the one who turned media ownership over to the current right wing owners. As everyone tries to rewrite history in favor of a really sorry president, it doesn't seem to be helping the GOP hold on to power in the midst of the revelations that Bush authorized the torture and rape of children of Abu Griab - pictures soon to be released.

Finally their get the sucker into the ground and we can get back to reality.

Reagan did not win the Cold War

Actually Gorbechev did.

Here's an exerpt from MSNBC Story where Gorbechev sets the record straight.

'We all lost'
But if he had warm, appreciative words for Reagan, Gorbachev brusquely dismissed the suggestion that Reagan had intimidated either him or the Soviet Union, or forced them to make concessions. Was it accurate to say that Reagan won the Cold War? "That's not serious," Gorbachev said, using the same words several times. "I think we all lost the Cold War, particularly the Soviet Union. We each lost $10 trillion," he said, referring to the money Russians and Americans spent on an arms race that lasted more than four decades. "We only won when the Cold War ended."

By Gorbachev's account, it was his early successes on the world stage that convinced the Americans that they had to deal with him and to match his fervor for arms control and other agreements that could reduce East-West tensions. "We had an intelligence report from Washington in 1987," he said, "reporting on a meeting of the National Security Council." Senior U.S. officials had concluded that Gorbachev's "growing credibility and prestige did not serve the interests of the United States" and had to be countered. A desire in Washington not to let him make too good an impression on the world did more to promote subsequent Soviet-American agreements than any American intimidation, he said. "They wanted to look good in terms of making peace and achieving arms control," he said of the Reagan administration.

The changes he wrought in the Soviet Union, from ending much of the official censorship to sweeping political and economic reforms, were undertaken not because of any foreign pressure or concern, Gorbachev said, but because Russia was dying under the weight of the Stalinist system. "The country was being stifled by the lack of freedom," he said. "We were increasingly behind the West, which . . . was achieving a new technological era, a new kind of productivity. . . . And I was ashamed for my country -- perhaps the country with the richest resources on Earth, and we couldn't provide toothpaste for our people."

A Special Song to Remember Ronald Reagan

I found this Special Song that expresses that way I feel at the tragic passing of Presinent Reagan. Please play this song and see it this special piece moves your soul the way it moved mine and expresses the mood that represents how I felt about the passing of President Reagan.

------

I sent the link to my news media list with this message:

ok - I'm watching this week long Reagal Funeral Orgy that is trying to convert a truely bad president into a saint - capture his spirit and try to stuff him into George Bush. Reagan was not a great president and really accomplished very little that was positive. In my opinion firing the airline traffic controllers for their illegal strike was the high point of his carreer. I'm 48 years ols and I'm never going to see Social Security because of the Reagan debt. And - neither are you.

So - since we are reinventing history I feel that I need to bring the focus back to reality. There are a lot of us who truely resent Ronald Reagan and he was a very devicive president. He took political annomosity to a new level. He was openly insulting to people of good conscience who strongly disagreed with him on many issues and he fostered a spirit of hatred between "Liberals" and "Conservatives".

So "liberals" are enlightened and show respect for the dead, but - some liberals are not enlighened and are basically crude and insensitive. I am in the latter category - especially when conservatives are taking advantage of the sit\uation and turning it into an opportunity to use moonie like brain washing techniques to try to create a false record and obscure reality as it really is. Those to would rewrite history should first pay bach the $12,000 per person he ran up in debt with absolutely nothing to show for it. When I think about the Reagan legacy - I want to go out and burn a flag! So - having said that - here's the way the other half of America really feels.

Are our soldiers heros - or just sex perverts?

You think you've seen the worst of it - and then you find more. Here's an Article from the New York Times where it turns out that stripping prisoners nake and having them perform homosexual sex acts with each other in order to create religious shame was going on all the time.

For some reason the American press likes to use the term "sexual humiliation" instead of "homosexual rape" which is the real term when prosoners were forced to give oral sex and butt fuck each other.

I remember learning about the Nazi prison guards in the concentration camps and wondering how people could do such inhumane things to each other. And then I see this where we are not only doing similar things - but the guards who are doing it are so clueless that they have no concept that this is even wrong. When you see the pictures you see everyone smiling and laughing as if it's one big party. And that's the scary part - that these "heros" are to totally oblivious that they have no moral compass whatsoever.

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Forced Nudity of Iraqi Prisoners Is Seen as a Pervasive Pattern, Not Isolated Incidents
By KATE ZERNIKE and DAVID ROHDE

Published: June 8, 2004

In the weeks since photographs of naked detainees set off the abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib, military officials have portrayed the sexual humiliation captured in the images as the isolated acts of a rogue night shift.

But forced nudity of prisoners was pervasive in the military intelligence unit of Abu Ghraib, so much so that soldiers later said they had not seen "the whole nudity thing," as one captain called it, as abusive or out of the ordinary.

While there have been reports of forced nakedness at detention facilities in Afghanistan and at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, the practice was apparently far more aggressive at Abu Ghraib, according to interviews, reports from human rights groups and sworn statements from detainees and soldiers. The detainees said leaving prisoners naked started as far back as last July, three months before the seven soldiers now charged and their military police company arrived at the prison. It bred a culture, some soldiers say, where the abuse captured on film could happen.

Detainees were paraded naked past other prisoners and guards; some were ordered to do jumping jacks and sing "The Star-Spangled Banner" in the nude, according to a several witnesses. Also, a father and his grown son were stripped, then forced to stand and stare at each other. The International Committee of the Red Cross, visiting in October, found prisoners left naked in their cells for days, modestly trying to shield themselves behind cardboard from meals-ready-to-eat boxes.

It is not clear how the practice emerged and, if it was official policy, exactly who authorized it. Col. Thomas M. Pappas, the military intelligence officer in charge of interrogations at the prison, told Army investigators that detainees might be stripped and shackled for questioning, but not without "good reason." When Red Cross monitors expressed alarm about prisoners being left in their cells or forced to move about naked, they said military intelligence officials "confirmed that it was part of the military intelligence process."

"It was not uncommon to see people without clothing," Capt. Donald J. Reese, the warden of the tier where the worst abuses occurred, told investigators in a sworn statement in January. "I only saw males. I was told the `whole nudity thing' was an interrogation procedure used by military intelligence, and never thought much of it."

An analyst from the 205th Military Intelligence Battalion, who asked not to be identified for fear of being punished for speaking out, said: "If you walked down through the wing of the prison where they were being held, they would have them strip down naked. Sometimes they would stand on boxes and would hold their arms out. That happened almost every night — having them naked. I wouldn't say it's abuse. It's definitely degrading to them."

Soldiers said at least one civilian interrogator, Steven Stefanowicz, had been so alarmed by the use of nudity that he reported a military intelligence interrogator after she made a detainee walk naked down a cellblock to humiliate him. His lawyer said Mr. Stefanowicz, who an Army report said might have been "directly or indirectly" responsible for abuses, had not thought stripping detainees was an appropriate interrogation technique, and had worried that doing so would incite more unrest at a time when guards were fending off rioters with live bullets.

Nudity is considered particularly shameful in Muslim culture, a violation of religious principles. While nudity as a disciplinary or coercive tool may be especially objectionable to Muslims, they are hardly the only victims of the practice. Soldiers in Nazi Germany paraded naked prisoners in daylight, and human rights groups have documented the use of nudity during conflicts in Egypt, Chile and Turkey, and in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Central Intelligence Agency training manuals from the 1960's and 1980's taught the stripping of prisoners as an interrogation tool. Nudity and sexual humiliation have also been reported in American prisons where a number of guards at Abu Ghraib worked in their civilian lives.

New Enron Tapes

Here's something I snagged from CBS. More Enron tapes gloating about shutting down California. People died in these power outages. These people should be prosecuted for manslaughter. These are the people who put Bush in office and who Bush and Ashcroft are trying to protect. Ashcroft took $57,000 bucks from Enron when he ran for US senate against me in 2000.

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(CBS) The Department of Justice reportedly has thousands of hours of Enron employees recorded during the West Coast power crisis. Now, some in Congress want all the tapes released.

"I want to make sure that no federal agency suppresses this information, makes the case harder for us to get relief," says U.S. Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash.

After CBS broadcast the voices of Enron energy traders gloating over the crisis they helped create, more tapes were released.

In one tape, an employee says, "You gotta think the economy is going to f------g get crushed, man. This is like a recession waiting to f-----g happen."

The tapes show Enron tried to bring California to its knees.

Elsewhere on the tapes, another employee says, "This is where California breaks."

"Yeah, it sure does man," says another.

And they proposed to do that by exporting energy out of the state so the company could drive up prices even more.

"What we need to do is to help in the cause of, ah, downfall of California," an employee is heard saying on the tapes. "You guys need to pull your megawatts out of California on a daily basis."

"They're on the ropes today," says another employee. "I exported like a f------g 400 megs."

"Wow,'' says another employee, "f--k 'em, right!"

Traders can be heard manipulating the market, using now-infamous schemes with names like death star, ricochet and fat boy.

One employee is heard asking, "You want to do some fat boys or, or whatever, man, you know, take advantage of it."

In fat boy, Enron traders used fake power sales to hide megawatts, shrinking the supply of energy and driving up prices. They also used the oldest trick in the book: lies.

"It's called lies. It's all how well you can weave these lies together, Shari, alright, so," an employee is heard saying.

The other employee says, "I feel like I'm being corrupted now."

The first employee adds, "No, this is marketing,"

"OK.''

The tapes could affect dozens of cases already filed against the company by California Attorney General Bill Lockyer.

"If these are ever heard by a jury, they're going get strung up," says Lockyer.

After hearing the tapes, the state's two U.S. senators demanded an immediate $8.9 billion refund.

At a recent hearing Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif. said, "All I can tell you is you have to listen to what's happening out there to ordinary people who you are responsible to help through this."

With Enron and other major energy companies in bankruptcy, big refunds are unlikely. But the tapes could provide the evidence states and cities need to break contracts they were forced to sign at the height of the energy crisis.

Torture Memo Released

Snagged this off of MSNBC - Torture.pdf

This is pretty interesting legal bullshit. It basically justifies everything Bush and the millitary does. It makes me wish I was a lawyer defending the guards at Abu Griab. This memo provides the perfect legal cover. Here's why:

The guards say that they were acting under orders and that they were doing so because they believed that they were saving lives by extracting valuable information - because they were told that was the reason.

Now - here's the test. Would a person reasonably believe their actions were justified under these circumstances? Normally this excuse wouldn't fly - but - because of this memo - it changes everything.

The guards can argue that they could reasonably believe it because the legal counsel to the President believed it - and would a lowly guard be expected to be smarter that the presidents lawyers? See where this is going? It's the "I can be expected to be smarter than the President" defense. I think it would work.

Seriously - if the President says it's legal - the secretary of defense says it's legal - the justice department says it's legal - the generals say it's legal - the commanding officers say it's legal - then how can a burger flipper who was called to duty - trained as a truck mechanic - and made a prison guard know that it's not legal?

The truth is - everyone from the President on down know that it was illegal - but they all lied to create a legal fiction to justify breaking the law. It's a plan where if enough higher ups break the law - and the congress and the supreme court is under Republican control - we know they are all going to get away with it. But if these legal theories had any validity then Hitler and Saddam Husein would be innocent. Begause what this memo says is that the President is above the law and can do whatever the hell he wants.

Republicans insensitive ro Reagan's Death

Letter to the Editor

I'm somewhat disturbed by the lack of sensitivity of Republican comparing Bash and Reagan. I was never a Reagan fan - but I don't see the comparison. Reagan would never have fabricated a fake war and got over 800 American killed. Reagan would never have allowed rape, torture, and murder at Abu Griab Prison and then try to cover it up. Reagan didn't have contempt for law and honesty the way Bush does. And - Reagan was a whole lot smarter than Bush. Why Republicans want to disgrace Reagan in this time of national morning by comparing him to Bush is a mystery to me.

Ashcroft Torture Memo Coverup

Yahoo Story

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The US Attorney General refused to give lawmakers copies of a Justice Department memo that allegedly advised the White House that torture during 'war on terror' interrogations could be justified.

The Washington Post said an August 2002 memo sent by the Justice Department in response to a Central Intelligence Agency request for legal guidance said international laws against torture "may be unconstitutional if applied to interrogations" conducted in the war on terrorism.

But Attorney General John Ashcroft refused to provide the memo to lawmakers on the Senate Judiciary Committee.

"We believe that to provide this kind of information would impair the ability of advice-giving in the executive branch to be candid, forthright, thorough and accurate at all times," Ashcroft said.

Ashcroft told lawmakers that while "this administration rejects torture," he said he could not provide specific details of communications between his office and the White House.

"Congress has the right to ask whatever questions it wants," Ashcroft continued.

But, he said, "there are certain things that in the interest of the executive branch operating effectively that I think it's inappropriate for the Attorney General to say."

Democrats expressed outrage at Ashcroft's refusal to provide the document.

Bush approved the Torture

Of cource it's not like he directly said - go torture those people. That's not how these kind of orders are given. The president has to have his deniability, He has to be able to claim that - "I didn't know they were torturing people. I am like so shocked!"

So here's how this sort of thing works. The Bush legal team produces a memorandum that creates a justification for torture. And this happened. Under this memorandum "A team of administration lawyers concluded in a March 2003 legal memorandum that President Bush was not bound by either an international treaty prohibiting torture or by a federal antitorture law because he had the authority as commander in chief to approve any technique needed to protect the nation's security." According to an Article in the New York Times.

Basically - this says that Bush can throw out the Geneva Convention with merely a national security excuse.

It then creates cover of lower ranking officers. A reason would be if military personnel believed that they were acting on orders from superiors, the lawyers said.

"In order to respect the president's inherent constitutional authority to manage a military campaign," the lawyers wrote in the 56-page confidential memorandum, the prohibition against torture "must be construed as inapplicable to interrogation undertaken pursuant to his commander-in-chief authority."

Then - they go about trying to redefine what torture is. The March 6 document about torture provides tightly constructed definitions of torture. For example, if an interrogator "knows that severe pain will result from his actions, if causing such harm is not his objective, he lacks the requisite specific intent even though the defendant did not act in good faith," the report said. "Instead, a defendant is guilty of torture only if he acts with the express purpose of inflicting severe pain or suffering on a person within his control."

So - what this means is - if your primary objective is to get information or to obey your commanding officer respecting the chain of command - then what you are doing isn't really torture. It's only torture if you have no better reason than to cause pain.

And - buy saying "severe pain" they create another loophole as to what is severe. And - if the person causing the severe pain doesn't know it's severe - they would be immune.

And then where you torture is also significant. Accouding to the Times, "The March memorandum also contains a curious section in which the lawyers argued that any torture committed at Guantánamo would not be a violation of the anti-torture statute because the base was under American legal jurisdiction and the statute concerns only torture committed overseas. That view is in direct conflict with the position the administration has taken in the Supreme Court, where it has argued that prisoners at Guantánamo Bay are not entitled to constitutional protections because the base is outside American jurisdiction."

So - Gitmo is outside American jurisdiction? What a load of crap! Bet if I shot a general there that they would find plenty of jurisdiction to prosecute me. Or - would they? They'd just turture me without a trial.

The point - getting back to the main subject - is that this memorandum was circulated and only the extremely stupid would get the idea that this is an order from the president to start torturing prisoners. And - it is constructed in such a way that the further you go down the chain of command the more torture is required. It creates levels of willful ignorance so that if they are caught that combinations of "I didn't know what was happening" and "I was just following orders" could be used as a defense.

But putting aside the obuscations what is really happening here is that Bush and Rumsfield are war criminals and should be hauled in front of an international tribunal and tried for war crimes. Bush and Rumsfield didn't do anything that was substantially different that Saddam Hussein did. Saddam beats Bush only in quantity.

Of course we'll never see this happen because Bush is above the law. But being above the law doesn't make what you do legal. It merely means that you have a way of escaping justice. If anyone else on the planet did what Bush did they would be on trial as a war criminal. And even though Bush can escape justice doesn't mean that we can't at leat try him in the court of public opinion.

And for those who say that "Bush is innocent till proven guilty" I say that when someone is in a position of being above the law - then they can be guilty without being proven guilty bcause they are immune from the process of law.

I therefore declare Bush guilty was crimes against humanity because the evidence that he ordered the illegal tortures and violated International law is obvious.

There is no doubt in my mind that the turture hasn't stopped. I has just been moved to places where there are no cameras to take pictures and into countries where these kind of things go on. If we take a prisoner to Egypt to be tortured - it's no different in any way than if we are doing the torture ourselves.

US will give Iraq Sovereignty

As long as we control it. Iraq can be free as long as they are under our control. As long as they do want we say. After all - they don't know how to be free. Their just Muslims. We have to teach them freedom and in order for them to learn it - they have to do what they are told.

New Iraq Timeline Site - Incredable Information!

This guy Max Black has posted a new web site outlining in detail everything leading up to the War in Iraq. Some of it goes back to Prescott Bush's Nazi days. I just can't stop reading it!!

http://www.iraqtimeline.com

If you like what you see - please link to http://www.iraqtimeline.com

Here's a sample"

The 1980s:

1980
Osama bin Laden provides help for the Afghan Mujaheddin and the CIA. Iran-Iraq War. The GOP's "October Surprise" leads to the election of Ronald Reagan as president.

1981
Hostages released. Reagan shot. Egypt's Anwar Sadat assassinated.

1982
US covert support of Iraq in its war with Iran. Sun Myung Moon becomes a media mogul and an ally of the GOP. Arbusto Oil and Spectrum 7.

1983
Promis/Inslaw scandal. 241 Marines die in Lebanon. Reagan envoy Donald Rumsfeld meets with Hussein to shore up US-Iraqi relations.

1984
Rumsfeld gives US approval for Iraqi chemical warfare. Osama bin Laden peddles arms and opium with CIA approval. Iran-Contra scandal brewing.

1985
CIA recruits radical Muslims to fight in Afghanistan. US swaps arms to Iran for hostages.

1986
The Clintons extricate themselves from Whitewater. Reagan illegally funds Nicaraguan Contras. Chernobyl. Harken Oil. Iran-Contra scandal breaks; Dick Cheney protects Vice President Bush. Reagan administration successfully blunts Iran-Contra investigation.

1987
Reagan admits involvement in Iran-Contra. USS Stark attacked by Iraq; US blames Iran. Robert Bork blocked from US Supreme Court, raising ire of conservatives.

1988
Rush Limbaugh begins broadcasting nationally. Operation Anfal in Iraq kills thousands of Kurds. Iran-Contra indictments. Halabjah massacre. Soviets begin withdrawing from Afghanistan. US directly attacks Iranian forces. Echelon launched. Al-Qaeda founded. Iran-Iraq war ends. Pan Am plane bombed over Lockerbie, Scotland, by Islamic terrorists. George H.W. Bush becomes President.

1989
Prescott Bush ties with Japanese crime lords. Bush escalates secret support of Iraq. BCCI investigation. George W. Bush buys into Texas Rangers. Tiananmen Square protests in Beijing. Newt Gingrich successfully forces Jim Wright out of power. Berlin Wall falls. Noriega regime in Panama overthrown by US.

The 1990s:

1990
Harken Oil contracts to drill in Persian Gulf. US government gives Saddam Hussein green light to invade Kuwait. US falsifies evidence that Iraq is preparing to attack Saudi Arabia. Iraq invades Kuwait; Bush responds with "Operation Desert Shield." US falsifies evidence that Iraqi troops murdered Kuwaiti babies; the global outcry legitimizes US military escalation in Kuwait. Rabbi Meir Kahane assassinated.

1991
US invades Iraq: "Operation Desert Storm." US destroys Iraqi water supply, leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis. Iraqi forces set oil fields ablaze. Entire invasion and "liberation" of Kuwait carefully stage-managed by GOP-hired public relations firms. After invasion, Hussein crushes Kurdish rebellion, which was encouraged by US. SEC investigates Harken Oil; investigation derailed by friends of Bush family. Coup in Russia leads to deposing of Mikhail Gorbachev and dissolution of USSR. Clarence Thomas named to Supreme Court. US military presence in Saudi Arabia infuriates Islamic radicals and leads to "jihad" against US.

1992
"Defense Planning Guidance" article lays out GOP foreign policy for next twenty years; primarily authored by Paul Wolfowitz, with input from Dick Cheney and other hawks. Bush sends troops to Somalia. Bill Clinton becomes President. George H.W. Bush pardons a number of convicted Iran-Contra figures.

1993
Clinton administration buries "October Surprise" evidence. Clinton is asked by Bush to back off on Iraq/BCCI investigation and agrees. WTC bombing. US foils assassination attempt on former president Bush. Branch Davidian debacle. White House travel office imbroglio demonstrates that conservatives are determined to destroy Clinton no matter what. Suicide of Vince Foster becomes a cause celebré among Clinton conspiracy mongers. A US military raid in Somalia goes awry, causing the deaths of 18 soldiers. Communist resistance to change in the former USSR is defeated. Whitewater investigation begins. "Troopergate," a bogus scandal concocted by right-wing media, hits the US press.

1994
Pentagon derails investigations into Gulf War syndrome. Donald Rumsfeld's firm supplies North Korea with uranium and nuclear technology; blame for North Korea's nuclear program will later be shifted onto Clinton. Paula Jones accuses Clinton of sexual impropriety. Robert Fiske finds nothing to Whitewater allegations, and is replaced by GOP hardliner Kenneth Starr. FBI buries evidence of Saudi involvement with Islamic terror groups. Taliban takes power in Afghanistan. George W. Bush becomes governor of Texas.

1995
Clinton administration continues to stonewall investigations into US connections to Iraq. White supremacist Timothy McVeigh bombs a federal building in Oklahoma, killing 168. Two congressional investigations find no evidence of criminal activity on the Clintons' involvement in Whitewater; Starr continues to investigate. BCCI investigation concludes. False offer of al-Qaeda information from Sudan. Dick Cheney's Halliburton Oil fined for doing business with terror sponsor Libya. Clinton-Lewinsky affair. Israel's Yitzhak Rabin assassinated. Newt Gingrich engineers shutdown of federal government. GOP Senator Orrin Hatch stonewalls investigation into FBI mistakes leading to 1993 WTC bombing. RTC clears Clintons of wrongdoing in Whitewater.

1996
Clinton launches aggressive anti-terrorism initiatives; GOP fights every step. Meeting between Osama bin Laden and Saudi Arabia. Khobar Towers bombing. Failed attempt by CIA to overthrow Saddam Hussein. Olympic bombing. FBI stymies investigation into Muslim terror fronts in US.

1997
Halliburton deals extensively with Iraq, in violation of US law. Project for New American Century founded. IAEA concludes that Iraq possesses no nuclear weapons program. Taliban negotiates with Unocal for pipeline construction in Afghanistan.

1998
Investigation into Clinton-Lewinsky affair mounts. Starr illegally redirects Whitewater investigation to encompass Lewinsky investigation. Paula Jones lawsuit against Clinton fizzles; judge rebukes "perjury trap." PNAC advocates military overthrow of Iraqi government. Starr commission proves to leak information to press to influence investigation. US missile attacks on terrorist groups in Tanzania and Afghanistan. Clinton authorizes assassination of bin Laden. CIA gives Clinton officials evidence of upcoming attacks by al-Qaeda on US targets involving hijacked airplanes. Starr Report. House impeaches Clinton over lying about Lewinsky affair. Gingrich resigns over marital affairs. "Operation Desert Fox."

1999
US payoffs to Taliban in order to secure oil pipeline rights. Anthrax mailings begin, with little media notice. Senate fails to vote to impeach Clinton. Iraq ambassador visits Sudan; the visit will later trigger false accusations that Iraq purchased uranium from Niger. Vice President Al Gore's comments about his sponsorship of Internet leglislation, and his comments on toxic spills and Love Canal, are misquoted, becoming source of allegations of Gore's "serial lying." Columbine High School massacre. GOP refuses to support Clinton administration's peacekeeping efforts in Balkans. George W. Bush presidential campaign whitewashes his military records. CIA plans to assassinate bin Laden fail. Starr resigns as head of investigation. Plethora of terror warnings.

Cheney Learns from Reagan

A few months ago it was revealed that Cheney learned something from Reagan. "Ronald Reagan taught us that deficits don't matter."

Great lesson Dick!

Isn't it interesting that you don't hear Republicans talking about the deficit anymore. No longer do you hear the words "balanced budget". It looks to me like Republicans have abandoned fiscal responsibility from their platform.

Reagan is Dead - Finally!

Letter to the Editor

Different people have different opinions about the life of Ronald Reagan - but there's one think I think everyone agrees on. America will be forever in his debt.

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Thanks to FOX NEWS for reading this on the air!

Died at a good time too. I'm getting tired of D-Day and all this "Greatest Generation" bullshit and the glorification of war.

I used to think Reagan was the worst president ever - but that was before Dubya. Reagan was a poison to democracy - a moonie puppet - who took the Republican party from fiscal conservatives to religious neocons. An opponent of stem cell research he managed to prevent the very science that might have cured him. To that extent 10 years of mindless suffering was poetic justice. Finally his widow Nancy gets it. Got to give her credit for finally figuring it out.

I think that since Reagan is the father of huge deficit spending they should put his picture on the treasury note.

Makes me wish I was a Christian because if I were christian I'd know that Reagan was being checked in Hell. but I'm no Christian so he's just plain gone. I say - good riddance!

1000 days since 9-11 bin Laden still free

Letter to the Editor

On Monday June 7th 2004 will be 1000 days since Osama bin Laden blew up the World Trade center on September 11th 2001. Bin Laden is still free and I can't help to think that he's not seriously being pursued. It seems to me that if America was REALLY focused on capturing bin Laden that he would be caught by now. Makes you wonder if Bush cut a deal with bin Laden and this war on terror is phony!

Fun with Google!

Go to Google and search on the word "failure" and see what comes up.

Kerry and Flip Flopping

The Republican controlled press wants you to believe Kerry Flip Flops on everything. If Kerry stopped flip floping they would report "Kerry flip flops on flip flopping". But this is the same press that's trying to convince you that the economy is strong so take into account where it's coming from. The press is so stupid that they even think Bush is articulate!

Bush Dirties Christiian Identity

The biggest losers in the Bush culture revolution are the ones who back him the strongest - Christians. Bush has done more to hurt the image of Christianity than anyone since the Crusades.

Bush identifies himself as a Christian in every move he makes and thus hold himself out as an example of Christian behavior. Although the American media downplays American war atrocities - the rest of the world isn't nearly as blind.

The rape and torture at Abu Griab Prison wasn't just "humiliation" as Americans describe it - it was religious persecution. Besides sleep deprivation and pain, Americans raped the women prisoners, brought in their teenage children and raped them with the prisoners watching, forced male prisoners to have homosexual sex with each other, and several prisoners were just beaten to death.

But - the torture went beyond that. They focused on their religious beliefs. Prisoners were forced by their Christian captors to renounce their faith and their god and were forced to accept Jesus literally at gunpoint. They were forced to eat pork - something hat is prohibited in their religion. This is the same sort of thing that happened during the Crusades where people were mass slaughtered for not accepting Jesus.

Although Americans try to brush it off - one of the things that are clear in the pictures of torture is that the American prison gauds were truly enjoying it. They are all smiling - giving the thumbs up - drinking and laughing - and making porn videos in front of the prisoners. Those pictures haven't yet surfaced but have been described numerous times in the press. When they come out we'll get to see Ms. England actually getting pregnant.

And this was all done with the knowledge and approval of everyone up the chain of command all the way to Bush. It started with Bush openly advocating torture. The White House described the Geneva Convention as "quaint" and "outdated" and they along with Ashcroft make it clear that the restrictions on torture don't apply to Americans.

Then there is mounting evidence of secret orders being given by Rumsfield to torture prisoners. Prisoners were hidden from the Red Cross. Military Intelligence took control of the prison and gave the orders to torture. Pictures are showing that they are clearly in control. There is absolutely no doubt at all in the minds of everyone who is outside the zone of denial that what happened at Abu Griab was Christians gone Wild! It was literally done in the name of Jesus!

American bigotry is obvious on all levels and it is clear that the Bush administration considers Iraqis to be subhuman. When combat deaths are reported they only report Americans killed and the official casualty count is how many Americans were killed. Iraqi deaths are kept as a separate number and are not talked about in the same way. And the numbers are kept segregated. We don't add Americans killed to Iraqis killed to come up with the total number of people killed. To the Bush administration - Iraqis are not people - in fact to them - adding Muslim and American casualties together is a dishonor to the Americans.

These atrocities are being carried out by Bush and his neo con backers. When I say "Americans" that isn't accurate because "Americans" wouldn't do anything like this. What is happening in Iraq is being done by a Christian cult who stole the election and is running America into the ground. And this Christian cult does not reflect mainstream American Christian thinking, but they are stealing the Christian identity and are committing atrocities under the banner of Christianity. And that is why this article is titled the way it is.

To the outside world who lives beyond the zone of denial what is happening is pretty obvious. George W. Bush acting as a Christian and as the leader of a Christian nation - is on an imperialist mission to attack Muslim nations without provocation - using lies and deception - in order to force Muslim nations to accept Christianity at the point of a gun. Muslims are put into prisons and are raped and tortured and kicked to death for not renouncing their faith and accepting Jesus. This is the way the Muslim world sees us - and the interpretation is largely correct. Bush really does intend to convert Muslims at gunpoint.

Let us assume that Bush didn't know the details of the rape and murder at Abu Griab Prison - and he probably didn't. But he sure knows them now. So what is he doing about it? Running for political cover. He is trying to whitewash it with more lies. "It was just a few bad apples" they say and he talks about Rumsfield as the finest Secretary of State in the history of the world. What he is really saying is - Iraqi's and Muslims and non-christians are subhuman and that he retroactively approves of everything that had happened that he now knows about. These war atrocities don't rise to the level of politics.

Of course Muslims aren't any better than Christians when it comes to rape, torture, and murder. One need look no farther than the Telaban to see Muslims gone wild. But American Christians like to think of themselves as being more enlightened than suicide bombers and people who stone women to death - and the bottom line is - this puts Christians on the same level as Muslims - and Bush is the one who took Christians there.

The Bush Administration is a religious cult based small group of Christian Neo cons who are under the control of the Reverened Sun Myung Moon (yes - the moonies) who have usurped Christian identity and who are pulling the strings behind right wing Christian America. Moon was crowned the king in a crowning at a ceremony in the Dirkson Office Building by a group of Republican senators and is busy trying to get Christians to get rid of the cross and replace it with his crown. Papa Bush is often a Featured Speaker at Moon Mass Weddings. But that's another scandal - and I'll save that for another blog entry.

Did Al Gore Finally Find his Testicals?

Perhaps he did. This is the speech he gave for MoveOn.org If he only spoke like this when he was running in 2000 then maybe the country wouldn't be going to hell. Gore finially says it like it is and apologizes for shouting down people like me who were trying to speak out against the fraud of the election. Finally - Al Gore gets it.

Listen to Gore's Speech - 7mb - 1 hour

Media Coverage of Enron Ripoff

I want to thank CBS for airing the Enron tapes - but I can't help to notice that the rest of the media is virtually ignoring the issue. I remember the coverage of President Clinton where the employment of a 5th cousin was front page news for 2 months - but under Bush when they have tape recordings of Enron employees bragging about shuting down power to the entire west coast - and then doing so - and bragging about what a friend they have in Bush - well - Bush and his buddy "Kenny-boy" barely gets talked about.

This is what happens when Republicans own the press. Thankfully there is the Inernet where you can read the trurh from people like me.

Here's some of what Enron Employees said about California:

"He just fucks California," says one Enron employee. "He steals money from California to the tune of about a million."

"Will you rephrase that?" asks a second employee.

"OK, he, um, he arbitrages the California market to the tune of a million bucks or two a day," replies the first.

The tapes, from Enron's West Coast trading desk, also confirm what CBS reported years ago: that in secret deals with power producers, traders deliberately drove up prices by ordering power plants shut down.

"If you took down the steamer, how long would it take to get it back up?" an Enron worker is heard saying.

"Oh, it's not something you want to just be turning on and off every hour. Let's put it that way," another says.

"Well, why don't you just go ahead and shut her down."

Officials with the Snohomish Public Utility District near Seattle received the tapes from the Justice Department.

"This is the evidence we've all been waiting for. This proves they manipulated the market," said Eric Christensen, a spokesman for the utility.

That utility, like many others, is trying to get its money back from Enron.

"They're fucking taking all the money back from you guys?" complains an Enron employee on the tapes. "All the money you guys stole from those poor grandmothers in California?"

"Yeah, grandma Millie, man"

"Yeah, now she wants her fucking money back for all the power you've charged right up, jammed right up her asshole for fucking $250 a megawatt hour."

And the tapes appear to link top Enron officials Ken Lay and Jeffrey Skilling to schemes that fueled the crisis.

"Government Affairs has to prove how valuable it is to Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling," says one trader.

"Ok."

"Do you know when you started over-scheduling load and making buckets of money on that?

Before the 2000 election, Enron employees pondered the possibilities of a Bush win.

"It'd be great. I'd love to see Ken Lay Secretary of Energy," says one Enron worker.

That didn't happen, but they were sure President Bush would fight any limits on sky-high energy prices.

"When this election comes Bush will fucking whack this shit, man. He won't play this price-cap bullshit."

Crude, but true.

"We will not take any action that makes California's problems worse and that's why I oppose price caps," said Mr. Bush on May 29, 2001.

Employee 1: "All the money you guys stole from those poor grandmothers in California?

Employee 2: "Yeah, Grandma Millie man.

Employee 1: "Yeah, now she wants her fucking money back for all the power you've charged right up, jammed right up her ass for fucking $250 a megawatt hour."

Employee 3: "This guy from the Wall Street Journal calls me up a little bit ago…"

Employee 4: "I wouldn't do it, because first of all you'd have to tell 'em a lot of lies because if you told the truth…"

Employee 3: "I'd get in trouble."

Employee 4: "You'd get in trouble."

"I'm just -- fuck -- I'm just trying to be an honest camper so I only go to jail once," says one employee.

------------------------

Ashcroft is investigating Enron - but Enron gave $50,000 to Ashcroft in 2000 when he was running for US Senate in Missouri. Ashcroft got the money in the Republican Primary to defeat his Republican challenger and win the Republican primary and go on to lose the race to a dead man - Gov. Mel Carnahan - and his widow became the Senator.

For 100 brownie points and the "attaboy" award - name the republican challenger who lost to Ashcroft in the Missouri Republican Primary! Be the first to leave a comment naming that person! Who did Enron donate $57,000 to Ashcroft to defeat?